Penn & Teller barbecue the Bible

As to the Big Foot forum. Again, I'm rather disapointed in your analysis of the discussion. There are people who are skeptical of the tape but then there are people on the forum who are skeptical of ALL of the evidence of big foot. There are also people who think that it is ligit.

But after repeated viewings, it may be legit.

hi everyone this is a very interesting filmfootage of a sasquatch. the area looks great habitat for sasquatch. i think some researchers here should call or email the man who took the footage. it looks authentic to me but more research needs to be done to it.

After viewing the video a few times I don't have an opinion either way (real vs hoax). I don't think you can dimiss the video as an outright hoax based upon the expected direction a bigfoot would travel if startled or the length of the video.

Folks, I know the need to analyze this film is strong, but please keep some perspective. This gentleman has not been interviewed yet, investigators are in contact with him. We don't know if that is all the film, if there is sound on the original, or where exactly the film was taken. Let them do their work and get back with you (they post here) before you go on record stating one view point or another (I personally like to give birth, have the doctor tell me its a boy, before I yell boy...but that's just me). I know that Rick Noll is looking at the film as well, and his perspective will be very valuable.

In any event, I'm not sure why BFF would be considered to be a purely woo site.
 
  1. Penn & Teller encourage people to think for themselves.
  2. Penn & Teller encourage skepticism.
  3. Penn & Teller encourage critical thinking.
  4. Penn & Teller don't have a pre-packaged set of beliefs. They do note that religions do however.
  5. No one needs Penn & Teller to tell them how to think.
  6. If you or anyone else think your statement true then pull a scam on Penn & Teller.

1) People who don't think for themselves probably never will, regardless of P&T scams

2) Skepticism is not the be-all, end-all in reasoning

3) Critical thinking has it's limits

4) Yes, no one needs the likes of Penn & Teller to tell them how to think

5) I don't need to pull a scam on Penn & Teller, because I really don't give much of a damn about them and their silly show.

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And I'm wasting my time in a manner pleasing to me.

So, you didn't learn anything from your father.

He always said I've got a thick skull............

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What a laugh! You skeptics are like superhuman or something?

This is just rhetoric. It means nothing. Skeptics aren't credulous. Tell us those things that skeptics believe in that would demonstrate that you are correct?

The very fact that you admit that skeptics believe things, for example.

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You claimed to find it "tremendously informative", as if you learned something.

Yes, I learned that serious and rigorous scientists can be fooled by skilled magicians.

Now why wouldn't you know that beforehand? Did you consider scientists to be superhuman?

I learned that I should be skeptical of claims by scammers who claim to talk to god, heal the sick, bend spoon or communicate with the dead and especially be skeptical of scientists who claim they have tested such people without the aid of a trained magician.

I've learned to be skeptical of such claims to, but I include claims about skepticism being "the way to think" as well.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster
Face it; skeptics are human, they can be fooled, they're biased, they're opinionated, they enjoy stupid TV shows like Penn & Teller's, and they're no different than anybody else.

Yes, skeptics are human, often biased and can be fooled. Far less so than non skeptics.

Yeah, right.

Why am I skeptical of that claim?
 
As to the Big Foot forum. Again, I'm rather disapointed in your analysis of the discussion. There are people who are skeptical of the tape but then there are people on the forum who are skeptical of ALL of the evidence of big foot.

Yup. Skeptics. That's us.

There are also people who think that it is ligit.

Really?

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But after repeated viewings, it may be legit.


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hi everyone this is a very interesting filmfootage of a sasquatch. the area looks great habitat for sasquatch. i think some researchers here should call or email the man who took the footage. it looks authentic to me but more research needs to be done to it.

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After viewing the video a few times I don't have an opinion either way (real vs hoax). I don't think you can dimiss the video as an outright hoax based upon the expected direction a bigfoot would travel if startled or the length of the video.

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Folks, I know the need to analyze this film is strong, but please keep some perspective. This gentleman has not been interviewed yet, investigators are in contact with him. We don't know if that is all the film, if there is sound on the original, or where exactly the film was taken. Let them do their work and get back with you (they post here) before you go on record stating one view point or another (I personally like to give birth, have the doctor tell me its a boy, before I yell boy...but that's just me). I know that Rick Noll is looking at the film as well, and his perspective will be very valuable.

In any event, I'm not sure why BFF would be considered to be a purely woo site.

Because "skeptics" here, with no knowledge or experience with the site, like to portray it as such so they have a feeling of superiority. They really don't know squat.

And Penn & Teller played right into their shallow minds.
 
1) People who don't think for themselves probably never will, regardless of P&T scams

2) Skepticism is not the be-all, end-all in reasoning

3) Critical thinking has it's limits

4) Yes, no one needs the likes of Penn & Teller to tell them how to think

5) I don't need to pull a scam on Penn & Teller, because I really don't give much of a damn about them and their silly show.
1.) Having watched all of the shows I would not call them "scams". In any event I think they will have a profound influence on the younger generation. Many of my children's friends (high school age) come over to watch the shows with my kids. We have all of the shows on DVD. I've seen a profound change in a number of them. There eyes are opening and they are questioning.

Such changes in popular culture, even something as innocuous as Family Guy and South Park can have a significant influence.

2.) No one says that it is. Only that it is very important to finding the truth.

3.) Sure it does but it is called "critical" for a reason. The single greatest contribution to society its members can make is to think critically.

4.) No one say that we need Penn & Teller for anything. However seeing the effect that it can have on people I'm convinced that it is a very substantive program for young minds and a few old ones also.

The very fact that you admit that skeptics believe things, for example.
You've lost me. Skeptics believe in things that are based on empirical evidence. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. I believe that the speed of light is constant and that the laws that enable humans to travel to the moon and split the atom. I hold all beliefs provisionally and I'm skeptical of claims without proof.

Now why wouldn't you know that beforehand? Did you consider scientists to be superhuman?
"Superhuman"? That's just a strawman. No, I didn't know it, like the scientists didn't know it because I didn't understand how it was possible to fool a rigorous scientist. Many people including many scientists were surprised at that.

I've learned to be skeptical of such claims to, but I include claims about skepticism being "the way to think" as well.
:D Let me guess, your skeptical of skepticism. That's rich.
 
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...Many of my children's friends (high school age) come over to watch the shows with my kids. We have all of the shows on DVD. I've seen a profound change in a number of them. There eyes are opening and they are questioning.

That surprises me a little. I have downloaded a few of them and watched a streaming version of one of them. They are more or less in sync with my views and approach to life. But I haven't shared them with anybody in my family. The relentless cussing would offend some and the disrespecful approach to relgion would offend others in my family. I gave copies to a few friends of mine but I didn't hear back about what they thought but I don't think it was that positive a response or they would have probably mentioned it to me.

So, although I enjoy them, I didn't see them as having a general appeal. But I'm glad to see that I might have been wrong about that, unfortunately in my world I think watching them is going to remain a privately enjoyed experience.
 
1.) Having watched all of the shows I would not call them "scams". In any event I think they will have a profound influence on the younger generation.

Now, that's a scary thought.

Such changes in popular culture, even something as innocuous as Family Guy and South Park can have a significant influence.

And that influence can die out as people mature and discover the truth.

2.) No one says that it is. Only that it is very important to finding the truth.

It is not exclusive to finding the truth.

3.) Sure it does but it is called "critical" for a reason. The single greatest contribution to society its members can make is to think critically.

I think the greatest contribution to society it's members can make is to think positively.

4.) No one say that we need Penn & Teller for anything. However seeing the effect that it can have on people I'm convinced that it is a very substantive program for young minds and a few old ones also.

I think they're a pair of lying fools.

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The very fact that you admit that skeptics believe things, for example.

You've lost me. Skeptics believe in things that are based on empirical evidence.

Me, too. Big deal.

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. I believe that the speed of light is constant and that the laws that enable humans to travel to the moon and split the atom. I hold all beliefs provisionally and I'm skeptical of claims without proof.

There ya' go. First it's "empiracal evidence", then it's "proof."

Belief is one of the choices one must make when "proof" is unavailable. One bases his belief (or disbelief) on the evidence.

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Now why wouldn't you know that beforehand? Did you consider scientists to be superhuman?

"Superhuman"? That's just a strawman. No, I didn't know it, like the scientists didn't know it because I didn't understand how it was possible to fool a rigorous scientist.

Why not? Aren't scientists people, too?

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I've learned to be skeptical of such claims to, but I include claims about skepticism being "the way to think" as well.

Let me guess, your skeptical of skepticism. That's rich.

Not quite accurate. I'm not skeptical of skepticism so much as I'm skeptical of people who claim to be skeptics.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster
Face it; skeptics are human, they can be fooled, they're biased, they're opinionated, they enjoy stupid TV shows like Penn & Teller's, and they're no different than anybody else.

Yes, skeptics are human, often biased and can be fooled. Far less so than non skeptics.
Originally Posted by Huntster
Yeah, right.

Why am I skeptical of that claim?

My guess is that it doesn't conform to your world view.

It damned sure doesn't conform to my experience with people.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster
Really?
None of those quotes are calling it an outright hoax. This is exactly what I would expect from that forum. I'm not certain why you think this is significant?

I guess you really did need someone to read it to you:

To me it sure does look like a fake,

why is it only 10 seconds long???
if this guy was filming it then why dont he release the whole tape of it???
unless it shows the guy getting out of the suit

What a bunch of horsecrap

Upon further review, the ruling on the field stands--it's bullcrap.

I call bullspit

Fake as can be.

I have to say it's a hoax.

Those are all opinions from different people, and all on the 1st page. There are 28 pages of that. On page 28, dated June 4, there is this:

Penn & Teller claim to have faked Sonoma footage

Please tell me you realize the significance of a hoax that didn't fool it's intended victim...................
 
That surprises me a little. I have downloaded a few of them and watched a streaming version of one of them. They are more or less in sync with my views and approach to life. But I haven't shared them with anybody in my family. The relentless cussing would offend some and the disrespecful approach to relgion would offend others in my family. I gave copies to a few friends of mine but I didn't hear back about what they thought but I don't think it was that positive a response or they would have probably mentioned it to me.

So, although I enjoy them, I didn't see them as having a general appeal. But I'm glad to see that I might have been wrong about that, unfortunately in my world I think watching them is going to remain a privately enjoyed experience.
I think we underestimate young adults. And we are fools if we think these kids are going to be offended by cussing. Unless of course they are evangelical Christian. None of my son's friends are.
 
Now, that's a scary thought.
I'm not sure how.

And that influence can die out as people mature and discover the truth.
? you haven't watched the shows have you?

I think the greatest contribution to society it's members can make is to think positively.
I don't.

I think they're a pair of lying fools.
You are entitled to an opinion. There is no basis for that opinion.

Me, too. Big deal.
Then I have no idea why you have a problem with P&T.

There ya' go. First it's "empiracal evidence", then it's "proof."
Why do you think those are exclusive of each other?


Belief is one of the choices one must make when "proof" is unavailable. One bases his belief (or disbelief) on the evidence.
I choose to believe absent proof that what is not in evidence is not there. I'm not sure where you got the idea that evidence wasn't "proof". That's a rather odd view.

Why not? Aren't scientists people, too?
They are trained to look at the world objectively. They are trained to control their experiments to avoid spurious data. Knowing this it is very surprising.

However, once you understand what James Randi understands and what Penn & Teller understand you realize how these scam artists can manipulate psychology to their benefit. It turns out that religious leaders and politicians use the same methods.

Not quite accurate. I'm not skeptical of skepticism so much as I'm skeptical of people who claim to be skeptics.
I will grant you that and apologize for making the assumption that I did. Sorry. It is perfectly valid to question the skeptics. I can't complain about that but I do disagree. Only anecdotal evidence comes to mind but I will try and find something more substantive.
 
I guess you really did need someone to read it to you:
Not at all. I read the quotes and I stand by my assessment and I'm still disappointed in yours. I conceded that there are folks who are skeptical of the film. That is what I would have expected. However a number of people were voicing a call for a fair hearing of the video and some did think it legit. You are only picking and choosing that which supports your view.

More importantly was the thread that you call the "apologetics" thread. That was a great thread.

Please tell me you realize the significance of a hoax that didn't fool it's intended victim.
You know that BFF was the "intended victim"? I'm sorry but the folks at BFF seem fairly reasonable and rational. I'm not sure why anyone would think that they would be the target of this video. It looks like you are making a straw man but I await your proof that the video was made for BFF. If that is the case let me apologize now.

RandFan
 
I think we underestimate young adults. And we are fools if we think these kids are going to be offended by cussing. Unless of course they are evangelical Christian. None of my son's friends are.

Sorry, I had no doubt that young people in general didn't mind cussing. ALthough, my only contact with young people is through my daughters, . One of whom doesn't live with us anymore. The other I have a somewhat strained relationship with. She has had a strong sense of right and wrong from early on and she both thinks cussing is wrong and is somewhat relgious. My skepticism, which I believe I don't impose on anybody, still manages to trouble her and serve as a something of a wedge between us. At any rate my only opportunity to interface with a teenager type young person turns out to be with somebody who is both offended by cussing and is somewhat religious.
 
Sorry, I had no doubt that young people in general didn't mind cussing. ALthough, my only contact with young people is through my daughters, . One of whom doesn't live with us anymore. The other I have a somewhat strained relationship with. She has had a strong sense of right and wrong from early on and she both thinks cussing is wrong and is somewhat relgious. My skepticism, which I believe I don't impose on anybody, still manages to trouble her and serve as a something of a wedge between us. At any rate my only opportunity to interface with a teenager type young person turns out to be with somebody who is both offended by cussing and is somewhat religious.
I understand. I wasn't certain how my kids were going to turn out. They had a lot of religious influence through friends and family. I didn't preach or push. I simply answered their questions as best and honestly as I could and as neutral and unbiased as I could. I think children should make informed decisions about religion. I always told them that if they chose to embrace religion that I would both support and respect their choice. I'll tell you, we had a lot of frank discussions about god and religion.

I grew up in a stifling religious atmosphere that caused a lot of stress and serious emotional problems for my family. To be honest not all religious families are so strict or so dysfunctional. I just didn't want my kids to experience any of that. Life is just too short for all of these hang-ups and worries about religion and sex and guilt about doing what some invisible man in the sky demands that we do like praying and going to church and not masturbating. What the hell is that all about anyway?

I'm sorry that there is a wedge issue for you and them. Love and respect them. I wish you the best of luck.
 
Originally Posted by Huntster
Now, that's a scary thought.

I'm not sure how.

I can see that.

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And that influence can die out as people mature and discover the truth.

? you haven't watched the shows have you?

Nope. I don't watch much TV.

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I think the greatest contribution to society it's members can make is to think positively.

I don't.

I can see that, too.

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I think they're a pair of lying fools.

You are entitled to an opinion. There is no basis for that opinion.

They tried to hoax a sasquatch film. They lied.

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Me, too. Big deal.

Then I have no idea why you have a problem with P&T.

They're liars.

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There ya' go. First it's "empiracal evidence", then it's "proof."

Why do you think those are exclusive of each other?

The dictionary should explain that to you. Must we read that together, too?

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Belief is one of the choices one must make when "proof" is unavailable. One bases his belief (or disbelief) on the evidence.

I choose to believe absent proof that what is not in evidence is not there. I'm not sure where you got the idea that evidence wasn't "proof". That's a rather odd view.

Yup. You really need someone to read the dictionary to you, don't you?

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Why not? Aren't scientists people, too?

They are trained to look at the world objectively. They are trained to control their experiments to avoid spurious data. Knowing this it is very surprising.

Yet, in their humanity, they too have preconcieved "beliefs".

Just like almost all "skeptics."

However, once you understand what James Randi understands and what Penn & Teller understand you realize how these scam artists can manipulate psychology to their benefit. It turns out that religious leaders and politicians use the same methods.

So do others.
 
....However a number of people were voicing a call for a fair hearing of the video...

And that is wrong, how?

....and some did think it legit.

Yup. Two.

You are only picking and choosing that which supports your view.

I'm looking at the whole thread. The evidence.

All of it.

More importantly was the thread that you call the "apologetics" thread. That was a great thread.

Some of the posters are obviously quite wise. I mentioned blutoski.

You know that BFF was the "intended victim"? I'm sorry but the folks at BFF seem fairly reasonable and rational. I'm not sure why anyone would think that they would be the target of this video. It looks like you are making a straw man but I await your proof that the video was made for BFF. If that is the case let me apologize now.

The hoax was actually intended for whoever could be caught, and I'm assuming P&T were quite pleased to have caught BFRO and Mr. Moneymaker in it's scam.

BFF is just the largest internet forum that discusses sasquatchery, and very few of the participants there were fooled.

There is also speculation that BFRO and Mr. Moneymaker weren't fooled, either, and were simply negotiating with "Mr. Nelson" with a profit in mind.
 
I can see that.
Non responsive. Rhetorical.

Nope. I don't watch much TV.
So you base your conclusions on incomplete data. Would you think it fair for me to judge a Christian on so incomplete of data?

I can see that, too.
Again, rhetorical.

They tried to hoax a sasquatch film. They lied.
And the police and DA's office conduct sting operations. Deception doesn't render someone a liar. They always intended to make the deception known. I can't call them liars based on this evidence.

They're liars.
You are entitled to an opinion. However by your own admission it is incomplete.

The dictionary should explain that to you. Must we read that together, too?
Empirical evidence IS proof.

Yup. You really need someone to read the dictionary to you, don't you?
{sigh}

Evidence

–noun 1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
Now, there IS the dictionary definition. Please to tell me how evidence is mutually exclusive of proof based on the definition.

Yet, in their humanity, they too have preconcieved "beliefs".
But unlike many, and perhaps most, skeptics are far more aware of their "beliefs" and biases and work to guard against them. It is something we think about a lot. I used to fall for all kinds of marketing ploys and telemarketers and pseudo science without critically thinking about them. Now I don't. It is that simple. Instead of simply relying on intuition the skeptic seeks proof of claims. That is the difference.

Just like almost all "skeptics."
Yes, of course. We can all be fooled. This is something known to skeptics. It was discussed at length at last years TAM. In fact, an experiment was conducted to show how magicians can be fooled.

Please, don't get me wrong, of course skeptics and scientists can be fooled. That is not may point. My point is that we are far less likely to because we are skeptical.

Oh, and all people are skeptical to a point. Christians are skeptical of other religions and other Gods. Skepticism is built into most if not all humans. The difference between skeptics and most humans is that skeptics understand the dangers of relying on intuition and work to hone their skepticism.

So do others.
Of course, so question everything and everyone as much as you can. We of course must make assumptions and rely on our intuition in everyday life. We can't function very well if we abuse skepticism and question everything all of the time. It is when unusual claims are made or our quality of life or our money is at risk that we must be extra careful and be skeptical.
 
And that is wrong, how?
That is my point. It is not wrong.

Yup. Two.

I'm looking at the whole thread. The evidence.

All of it.
I am also. I have no problems with the thread.

The hoax was actually intended for whoever could be caught, and I'm assuming P&T were quite pleased to have caught BFRO and Mr. Moneymaker in it's scam.
Sounds right.

BFF is just the largest internet forum that discusses sasquatchery, and very few of the participants there were fooled.
I don't see any problem with this. Good.

There is also speculation that BFRO and Mr. Moneymaker weren't fooled, either, and were simply negotiating with "Mr. Nelson" with a profit in mind.
?
 

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