Most Haunted - Yvette caught out

[pjh]

Are there any fallacious arguing tactics you're not going to use to defend your belief?

Clearly I am skeptical of the ideomotor effect, but I clearly am not discounting it as an explanation for dowsing. So I am not claiming it doesn't exist.

But yes, I'm don't believe the claim that when you sit down at an ouija board your subconscious:

- Wants to (and does) role-play a ghost/spirit.
- Can process English questions, and formulate/fake/make-up answers 'in character' of the spirit.
- Can then can move your hand letter by letter to spell out that answer.

All of this without your 'conscious mind' being involved. That's what YOU are claiming (and calling 'ideomotor effect')

I,

- Believe that it is a ludicrous claim
- Have seen no evidence at all to support it.
- Cannot even imagine a test or experiment that could.

 

[trvlr2]

PJH- FYI,

http://skepdic.com/ideomotor.html

" Scientific tests by American psychologist William James, French chemist Michel Chevreul, English scientist Michael Faraday (Zusne and Jones 1989: 111), and American psychologist Ray Hyman have demonstrated that many phenomena attributed to spiritual or paranormal forces, or to mysterious "energies," are actually due to ideomotor action. Furthermore, these tests demonstrate that "honest, intelligent people can unconsciously engage in muscular activity that is consistent with their expectations" (Hyman 1999). They also show that suggestions that can guide behavior can be given by subtle clues (Hyman 1977)."

So, it appears that people have at least two minds,conscious and unconscious,which may not communicate mentally, but through the body. Ie, I may wish to be or appear to be impartial, but conscious volition seems to be necessary to accomplish the ideomotor effect.
On high quibble, this would imply "cheating" , as no effect is noticed sans expectation.
I think that this demonstrates that our conscious mind is not always in
direct control,and personally,I find this notion causes me much discomfort.

 

[pjh]

PJH- FYI,

http://skepdic.com/ideomotor.html

I think that this demonstrates that our conscious mind is not always in
direct control,and personally,I find this notion causes me much discomfort.

Let me repeat myself once again.

I'm questioning the ideomotor as an explanation for the ouija board. Hyman's tests were of dowsing and rubbing plates, two devices set-up so that very tiny muscular movements cause big effects (swinging for dowsing and sticking for the plate).

How do they in any way relate to what we see happens with a ouija?

Maybe you do make a tiny movement of your hand when you know you're over water without realising it. The rod swings wildly and you aren't consciously aware of the movement you made that caused it.

How does this explain role-playing a spirit, answering questions and then spelling them out one letter at a time?

 

[bjb]

pjh, I'm starting to think you're on to something. Here's what got me thinking: in the second Yvette video, she exhales, then 'pretends' that she heard a ghost make a breathing sound. But what if she isn't pretending? What if she exhaled without thinking and genuinely surprised herself with her own breathing? If this is true, then she really thinks that she heard a ghost and honestly didn't realize she simply heard herself breathing.

Now suppose Yvette is using a Ouija board and her ideomotor response makes her hand move slightly. How is she going to react? Either she will resist the motion (not likely) or consciously go along with it. She will believe a spirit nudged her hand toward a spot on the board so she'll purposely move the marker the rest of the way. Later, she can claim that she didn't consciously move the marker and strictly speaking, she wouldn't be lying. The spirit moved it first and she just helped it along.

If my idea is correct, the Ouija board doesn't move purely by the ideomotor response. It's a mixture of ideomotor effect, conscious action, and self-delusion (to cover up the conscious action). After watching those Most Haunted clips, I think Yvette is quite capable of tricking herself into believing she didn't move a Ouija board pointer by conscious action.

 

[blutoski]

The ouija board has been explained by 'skeptics' as an ideomotor effect.
http://www.skepdic.com/ideomotor.html

Strangely enough, I just don't buy it (the ideomotor explanation that is).

I think it is reasonable when explaining dowsing. A tiny unconscious movement can cause a big movement in the tensed twig or the precariously balanced coathangers.

However, the force required (to move a glass and 3 other arms) and the spelling of words seem to be well beyond anything that be done subconsciously.

So my assertion is that when the pointer moves, at least one person is deliberately moving it to spell out a word.

Clearly, even those who are attached to ideomotor explanation must admit that in the course of the history of ouija sessions, some have been moved by the deliberate action of an attendee.

Is there any experiment or test that could be performed that is capable of convincing an independent 3rd party (me) that what we're seeing is ideomotor and not someone having some fun?

One idea about this is the illusion of randomness. Participants have the same cultural background, and will have the same subconscious behavior, so you don't need one person to 'direct' the activity.

Two features we would expect from this theory:

1. there should be more hesitation at the start of words or phrases than at the end... somebody has to start the cascade, but once you're a few letters into a word, it should speed up as everybody knows how to finish it.

2. the board would not have words people will need to look up. The deceased will not, for example, transmit in Croatian.

A test based on #2: have six participants, none of whom speak the same language. It'd be interesting to see the results.

 

[Darat]

Let me repeat myself once again.

I'm questioning the ideomotor as an explanation for the ouija board. Hyman's tests were of dowsing and rubbing plates, two devices set-up so that very tiny muscular movements cause big effects (swinging for dowsing and sticking for the plate).

How do they in any way relate to what we see happens with a ouija?

Maybe you do make a tiny movement of your hand when you know you're over water without realising it. The rod swings wildly and you aren't consciously aware of the movement you made that caused it.

How does this explain role-playing a spirit, answering questions and then spelling them out one letter at a time?

A "real" (i.e. one on casters) planchette is a very sensitive pointer needing very little force to move it so I think that could be explained by the ideomotor effect and feedback once it's started to move. However like you I am very doubtful that it accounts for movement of pointers such as glasses over a rough surface. That is just people "consciously" and deliberately moving the glass.

 

[Darat]

....snip...

1. there should be more hesitation at the start of words or phrases than at the end... somebody has to start the cascade, but once you're a few letters into a word, it should speed up as everybody knows how to finish it.

...snip...

All the times I've used one with friends this is exactly how it seemed to be. It would be an interesting and quite simple experiment to try.

 

[GlennB]

....
1. there should be more hesitation at the start of words or phrases than at the end... somebody has to start the cascade, but once you're a few letters into a word, it should speed up as everybody knows how to finish it.
.....

That's exactly what does happen. And the words flow quicker towards the end of each sentence. Then - lordy - subsequent words+sentences form quicker as context develops.

Been there. Shame on me. But it was fun at the time.

(sorry if this kind of stuff has aleady been said - just leaping into the debate here)

 

[exarch]

A "real" (i.e. one on casters) planchette is a very sensitive pointer needing very little force to move it so I think that could be explained by the ideomotor effect and feedback once it's started to move. However like you I am very doubtful that it accounts for movement of pointers such as glasses over a rough surface. That is just people "consciously" and deliberately moving the glass.

Moving glasses is a completely different thing from moving a ouija board coaster though. When people are using a ouija board to get "messages", they will generally not be using a glass on a rough surface, but a ouija coaster on a smooth wooden board.

And the ideomotor effect has been shown to be a very real phenomenon. I think the main reason there's not that much research into ouija boards and their suspected mode of operation is probably because there's simply more interesting research yet to be carried out first.

 

[tsig]

Nobody is saying that there are never Ouija sessions where people are pushing the planchette around. But come on, there's people out there who use a ouija board on their own, and unless they were really deluded and completely disregarded the fact they are consciously pushing the planchette around themselves, how could they see the results as being spelled out by spirits/ghosts? There must be something else going on, which ideomotor effect explains very nicely. And that same explanation could also account for a large number of multi-person ouija sessions where nobody is consciously pushing the planchette around.

You never use it by yourself if you want results.

 

[tsig]

I'm sorry but I don't find "come on" a convincing argument.

The ouija board was originally invented as a party game (for more than one person). The vast majority of uses of the board are in group situations. The very few solo uses I have seen are by 'professional' psychics who use them as a tool, and no I wouldn't accept that they are genuinely fooling themselves.

The only people who's solo use of the ouija board I'd accept as genuine would be those who'd refuse to admit it! Once you're prepared to give a public demonstration of the solo use of a ouija board, then you have plenty of motive to fake the session consciously. As to how many people have used a ouija board solo, 'made contact' using the ideomotor effect- and then never told anyone - I have no idea, but then again neither do you, and to use this as 'evidence' for the ideomotor seems to be entirely wrong.

And what evidence do you have that at *any* multi-person ouija session there have been nobody conciously pushing, let alone this 'large number' that you've plucked from somewhere.

Let's face it, ideomotor (as an explanation for ouija) is a woo-woo belief. You believe in it because you want to or it makes you feel smart and clever. There is no real evidence for it, and nobody has even been able to *suggest* a test to prove it.

As a party game it needs no explation

 

[pjh]

So how far are people willing to go with ideomotor as an explanation?

What about automatic writing, could someone write a page of text with a pen without being consciously aware of what they're doing?

Also (based on the example of Yvette's gasp) what about speaking in tongues? Could the ideomotor effect explain that?

Also, where do things like tourettes fit into all this?

 

[bjb]

I still think the ideomotor effect can explain how a group of users gets a Ouija board to work, but now I have serious doubts that it explains the single-user case. Here's something else that depends upon psychological factors:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3443125822374384435

These guys in the yellow shirts believe they can focus their chi and knock other people down. Of course, if the attacker doesn't believe in chi the guys in the yellow shirts will recieve a rude surprise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw

'Something' is making these grown men fall down on the ground but it isn't chi or the ideomotor effect. I don't know why they fall but whatever the reason is, it might be the same mechanism that makes the Ouija board work for single users.

 

[Garrette]

I still think the ideomotor effect can explain how a group of users gets a Ouija board to work, but now I have serious doubts that it explains the single-user case. Here's something else that depends upon psychological factors:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3443125822374384435

These guys in the yellow shirts believe they can focus their chi and knock other people down. Of course, if the attacker doesn't believe in chi the guys in the yellow shirts will recieve a rude surprise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw

'Something' is making these grown men fall down on the ground but it isn't chi or the ideomotor effect. I don't know why they fall but whatever the reason is, it might be the same mechanism that makes the Ouija board work for single users.

I don't remember the term (or even if there is one term), but I would class this more along the lines of the particpating members at some religious gatherings. Those folks who fall down when Benny Hinn shouts "Heal!". Or those who spontaneously exhibit glossolalia (sp?).

 

[pjh]

A number of posters have raised the point that a perfect planchette needs very little force to push it. This is being used to somehow save the ideomotor as an explanation for ouija.

I'd just like to note that the standard ideomotor effect (dowsing and the chiro rubbing patch that have been tested) is observed where not only is a tiny subconscious force required, but also minimal or no actual movement occurs.

For example, the dowser doesn't think 'My hand moved and tipped the rod - but gee I've no idea what caused my hand to move.'

Surely the accepted ideomotor effect is a tiny force *AND* a tiny movement?

To reach from letter to letter on an oiuja, repeated movements of several centimetres are required, and remember you're actually moving the pointer, your hand and all the lower arm to reach each letter. So you're actually moving maybe a kilo or so of matter for each movement. F=ma, work = Force x Distance and all that!

Why is conscious fraud not a far better explanation for all oiuja board movement?

 

[Stray Cat]

Juvenille I know, but funny as......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiT7MtEG5Do&mode=related&search=

 

[Darat]

A number of posters have raised the point that a perfect planchette needs very little force to push it. This is being used to somehow save the ideomotor as an explanation for ouija.

I did point that out but not to "save" any theory but as an actual fact.

I'd just like to note that the standard ideomotor effect (dowsing and the chiro rubbing patch that have been tested) is observed where not only is a tiny subconscious force required, but also minimal or no actual movement occurs.

...snip...

The ideometer effect is a movement of the person's body, but one that a person doesn't seem to acknowledge.

Surely the accepted ideomotor effect is a tiny force *AND* a tiny movement?

I always thought the lack of acknowledgement by the person that it is the person themselves that is applying the force is part and parcel of the ideometer effect?

 

[Garrette]

A number of posters have raised the point that a perfect planchette needs very little force to push it. This is being used to somehow save the ideomotor as an explanation for ouija.

I'd just like to note that the standard ideomotor effect (dowsing and the chiro rubbing patch that have been tested) is observed where not only is a tiny subconscious force required, but also minimal or no actual movement occurs.

For example, the dowser doesn't think 'My hand moved and tipped the rod - but gee I've no idea what caused my hand to move.'

Surely the accepted ideomotor effect is a tiny force *AND* a tiny movement?

To reach from letter to letter on an oiuja, repeated movements of several centimetres are required, and remember you're actually moving the pointer, your hand and all the lower arm to reach each letter. So you're actually moving maybe a kilo or so of matter for each movement. F=ma, work = Force x Distance and all that!

Why is conscious fraud not a far better explanation for all oiuja board movement?

You're emulating Zeno, I think.

The aggregate movement is large for the planchette, just as the aggregate movement of the penny at the end of a string swinging in circles is large.

But the motive force need only be small.

You've caused me (and I think one other) to rethink ideomotor as an explanation for at least some things (particularly a large glass), but you've not succeeded in replacing it as an explanation for the planchette.

Plus, what Darat said.

 

[pjh]

I always thought the lack of acknowledgement by the person that it is the person themselves that is applying the force is part and parcel of the ideometer effect?

I disagree, part of the ideomotor effect's 'power' so to speak, it that to the subject it appears that nothing physical happened at all.

Let's take the 3 examples we're all in relative agreement about:

Dowsing
The rod appears to move because it detects water/gold/whatever. At no stage is the dowser aware that their hand moved at all.

Chiropractic rubbing
Again the subject isn't aware that they have increased pressure on the pad, to them it just appears to stick.

'Telekinetic Pendulums'
Again, when the subject mentally moves the swing of a pendulum, they're not aware that their hands moved at all to redirect the swing.

All situations which have been 'studied' all have both minute forces and tiny movements in common.

How can you extrapolate from these examples to this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ktEhTUMjqXw

 

[exarch]

As someone posted before, once the thing is moving, you're just "going along", or at least, you think that's what you're doing. But is that really true? Are you really just "moving along", or are you "moving along" to where ever you believe you should be moving. As pointed out, that planchette is really, really light. Especially compared to the weight of your arm which you're already keeping up. You're not putting the full weight of your arm on that planchette, and neither is anyone else, because then you can't feel and move along with any tiny movements that planchette makes. Rather, you're just lightly keeping your fingers on the planchette, and your shoulder is bearing the full weight of your arm. So any tiny twitch any muscle in your shoulder, elbow or wrist makes is going to cause "a movement" in the planchette which you would consider external because you're unaware it originates in your own shoulder. Staying absolutely motionless is something that's really hard for our muscles to keep up for long.