I think sometimes the simple points are overlooked as being "too obvious" but I'm simple so I like to start with the simple first!
Most Haunted - Yvette caught out
- Thread starter richardm
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I think sometimes the simple points are overlooked as being "too obvious" but I'm simple so I like to start with the simple first!
richardm
Philosopher
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I've no doubt that the effect exists, just curious if it's really strong enough to cause something big to move.
There is a great site about the history of the "talking board": http://www.museumoftalkingboards.com/history.html
Fair enough.
As I have had it work for me, in the manner I've described to pjh, I have no such doubts, at least when we're talking about a planchette. I haven't done it with a glass such as in the video.
exarch
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
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The planchette is light, and only has a few points of contact. That means it has a lot less friction than an upturned glass.
(Stating the obvious, for Darat
)That seems to weaken my case.The planchette is light, and only has a few points of contact. That means it has a lot less friction than an upturned glass.
(Stating the obvious, for Darat
Therefore I invoke the right of changing my testimony and my memory. Ahem:
Oh, wait! I actually did use a glass once. It was big. A really big glass. 4 pounds, I think, or maybe five. Yeah, at least that. And it was glued to the table. Moved quite well with the ideomotor effect.
I presumed exarch was being funny, as I hope no one is so credulous to believe that it was an ideomotor effect moving Yvette's glass!
So let me rephrase all this:
What evidence do you have that the ideomotor effect is taking place (in any ouija board session)?
How do you distinguish between the far more mundane explanation - "conscious action" and ideomotor?
May I remind you that for a theory/explanation to have any meaning in our (skeptical) world it must be falsifiable. I cannot see anyway to construct a test that could falsify this effect, but I remain open to someone outlining such a test to me. You don't need to conduct the test, just explain it.
Why then to rational skeptics cling to this as an explanatory theory?
[edited to add]
And without being rude, there are plenty of paranormal forums where I can hear plenty of "it happened to me" and "my son did this ..." type evidence/anecdotes.
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Well, pjh, on further consideration, you may be right. It may be that I can't rule out conscious effort. Whether or not there is scientific research that has done so, I don't know.
It doesn't bother me, though.
That being said, have you tried the planchette in the revised manner I told you? As it is only anecdotal it will not, of course, constitute proof, but it should suffice to show you, individually, that the possibility at least exists that ideomotor is sufficient.
It doesn't bother me, though.
That being said, have you tried the planchette in the revised manner I told you? As it is only anecdotal it will not, of course, constitute proof, but it should suffice to show you, individually, that the possibility at least exists that ideomotor is sufficient.
Tamazon
Critical Thinker
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I believe Feynman addressed a similar point in one of his autobiographies. A magician could get a person to lead them to a specfic place just by holding their hand lightly and jiggling slightly. When they moved in the wrong direction the person would resist slightly more, so the correct position could be determined. This is effectively the ideomotor effect moving an entire person, so a claim that it can't move large things is silly.
For a ouija a small ideomotor effect in one person can cause the other people to react to it and move in that direction, conciously or unconciously. The ideomotor effect does not have to move the whole weight of three other peope's arms, it just causes them to move themselves.
For a ouija a small ideomotor effect in one person can cause the other people to react to it and move in that direction, conciously or unconciously. The ideomotor effect does not have to move the whole weight of three other peope's arms, it just causes them to move themselves.
You have achieved the expected result. You were actually testing to see if the ideomotor effect was true or not, and both your conscious and subconscious mind was biased against the effect. The ideomotor effect will not work if you are aware of it and you don't want it to happen.
A proper experiment would be to find a test subject who could get the Ouija board to work. Let the subject demonstrate their ability, then blindfold them. The board should stop working at this point. Of course, the subject must not be told that the ideomotor effect is being tested otherwise nothing will happen in either part of the test.
Well hold on one second there cuddles before you go calling anyones claims silly!
You have just based your reasoning on watching a magician's trick.
So let me ask you if "are you a magician, and have you ever performed such a trick". If the answer is no, then don't be so quick bringing magic tricks in as proof of anything. I can assure you that it is you being silly in taking the magician's explanation of that trick at face value.
I'm sorry but how does that help explain anything? How does that sort a subject who is doing it consciously from one what is 'under the influence' of the ideomotor effect?bjb said:
John Jackson
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pjh, I see your point. The blindfold test only proves that *spirits* are not likely to be involved. However, the assumption is that the participant is not a determined liar. They have to honestly believe they are recieving messages from the spirit world and it is up to the experimenters to find an earnest test subject.
Essentially your point is that everybody who uses a Ouija board does it on purpose, but this does not explain why some people truly believe in them. The more I learn about skepticism the more I realize that people are capable of extreme amounts of self-delusion. Over the summer I read "The Demon-Haunted World", "Flim-Flam!", and "Why People Believe Strange Things". After reading these books, the ideomotor effect seems to require a relatively modest amount of self-delusion compared to the other beliefs that are out there.
Essentially your point is that everybody who uses a Ouija board does it on purpose, but this does not explain why some people truly believe in them. The more I learn about skepticism the more I realize that people are capable of extreme amounts of self-delusion. Over the summer I read "The Demon-Haunted World", "Flim-Flam!", and "Why People Believe Strange Things". After reading these books, the ideomotor effect seems to require a relatively modest amount of self-delusion compared to the other beliefs that are out there.
If muscle reading is subconscious (which I doubt but don't want to get into here) and it works as stated then it involves the mentalist detecting small differences in resistance as he waggles the subjects arm. Suffice to say, that like 'hypnotism' a 'willing' volunteer who knows something (and is willing to guide the mentalist) can guide the mentalist to that thing.
Even if it is as claimed, it is like dowsing - a tiny movement/tensing of muscles, nothing like what we see in an ouija session.
On a ouija board you make large sweeping gestures to reach the letters, you need to be able to understand a question and spell the answer - none of which seems to have any relevance to 'muscle reading'.
Why is this important? - because the scandal of 'facilitated communication' is being explained as 'ideomotor', which I believe lets a number of deceitful and self-serving people off the hook far too easily.
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-05-25.html
Much of the desire for things like ideomotor to be true seems to come (even with skeptics) from a desire to think the best of people - "They cannot all be liars/frauds".
Even if it is as claimed, it is like dowsing - a tiny movement/tensing of muscles, nothing like what we see in an ouija session.
On a ouija board you make large sweeping gestures to reach the letters, you need to be able to understand a question and spell the answer - none of which seems to have any relevance to 'muscle reading'.
Why is this important? - because the scandal of 'facilitated communication' is being explained as 'ideomotor', which I believe lets a number of deceitful and self-serving people off the hook far too easily.
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-05-25.html
Much of the desire for things like ideomotor to be true seems to come (even with skeptics) from a desire to think the best of people - "They cannot all be liars/frauds".
exarch
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Nobody is saying that there are never Ouija sessions where people are pushing the planchette around. But come on, there's people out there who use a ouija board on their own, and unless they were really deluded and completely disregarded the fact they are consciously pushing the planchette around themselves, how could they see the results as being spelled out by spirits/ghosts? There must be something else going on, which ideomotor effect explains very nicely. And that same explanation could also account for a large number of multi-person ouija sessions where nobody is consciously pushing the planchette around.
I'm sorry but I don't find "come on" a convincing argument.
The ouija board was originally invented as a party game (for more than one person). The vast majority of uses of the board are in group situations. The very few solo uses I have seen are by 'professional' psychics who use them as a tool, and no I wouldn't accept that they are genuinely fooling themselves.
The only people who's solo use of the ouija board I'd accept as genuine would be those who'd refuse to admit it! Once you're prepared to give a public demonstration of the solo use of a ouija board, then you have plenty of motive to fake the session consciously. As to how many people have used a ouija board solo, 'made contact' using the ideomotor effect- and then never told anyone - I have no idea, but then again neither do you, and to use this as 'evidence' for the ideomotor seems to be entirely wrong.
And what evidence do you have that at *any* multi-person ouija session there have been nobody conciously pushing, let alone this 'large number' that you've plucked from somewhere.
Let's face it, ideomotor (as an explanation for ouija) is a woo-woo belief. You believe in it because you want to or it makes you feel smart and clever. There is no real evidence for it, and nobody has even been able to *suggest* a test to prove it.
