Siesmic Evidence Proves Inside Job?

[Mashuna]

TS 123456789......................ect,ect

So according to you and Ross, a split second before the planes hit, explosives went off in the basements of the Towers.

I’m sorry you did say TOWERS didn’t you not TOWER. There were two, remember.

So here is your scenario,

1. Plant explosives devices in basement.
2. Rig Towers with termite or something other than load sounding explosive devices.
3. Hijack Plane.
4. Trigger basement explosives.
5. Slam plane into Tower(s)
6. Wait approx 50 minutes to trigger the quiet explosives in WTC 2
7. Wait same length of time again to trigger quiet explosives in WTC 1.

Brilliant, wonder which brainbox dreamed this one up.

This has been approximately my train of thought in wading through all the CT posts. Irrespective of any engineering knowledge or scientific background (although appreciative of all those who have done so much work to explain both), the whole concept is just ridiculously overcomplicated.

As I thought a while ago (and have seen posted elsewhere), if the point of the supposed conspiricy was the invasion of Iraq, why bother with all this, just hide some WMD somewhere then 'discover' them later.

The whole extrapolation of fantasy scenarios from low resolution pixellated video is bad enough, but if you're going to do that, at least come up with a plausible fantasy scenario. Hell, if you can't manage plausible, try for internally consistant.

'Just asking questions' is a reasonable start, I don't have a problem with it. Ignoring answers is where it all falls apart. It's like Intelligent Design, just replace 'I don't see how this bit happened so goddit' with 'evilneocongubimentdidit'.

I remain amazed at the patience and meticulous work done by people posting on these boards. I would say long may it continue, but I'm rather hoping that it won't be necessary.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

So according to you [TruthSeeker1234] and [Gordon] Ross, a split second before the planes hit, explosives went off in the basements of the Towers.

No. The basement explosives evidently went off 14 and 17 seconds before the planes hit.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

Oliver requested

So let me ask you:
What exactly is your point? Just go back - what do you really
want to know? Take some time to articulate the exact question
you have.

On this thread, the exact question i have is:

If not explosives in the basement of each tower, what is the explanation for the seismic spikes that were recorded 14 and 17 seconds before jet impact?

 

[stateofgrace]

No. The basement explosives evidently went off 14 and 17 seconds before the planes hit.

Oh I see.

So here is your scenario then?

1. Plant explosives devices in basement.
2. Rig Towers with termite or something other than load sounding explosive devices.
3. Hijack Planes
4. Trigger basement explosives (one) 14 seconds before plane hits
5. Slam plane into Tower.
6. Trigger basement explosive (two) 17 seconds before plane hits.
7. Slam plane into Tower.
8. Wait approx 50 minutes to trigger the quiet explosives in WTC 2
9. Wait same length of time again to trigger quiet explosives in WTC 1.

Anything else you may wish to add ?

 

[realitybites]

Truthie.... Here's a link to the contact information for everyone at the Lamont-Doherty Observatory.

Give 'em a call and see what they make of that paper you linked to. I'll go ahead and let you know that they're already on record stating how their data has been grossly mis-interpreted by those in the truth movement, but I'm sure they won't mind one more phone call.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

...I'm sorry JREF guys, but 911 was an inside job.

Dear alternate conspiracy theorist:

You are 100% wrong.

Love,

RK

 

[Mashuna]

Oliver requested

On this thread, the exact question i have is:

If not explosives in the basement of each tower, what is the explanation for the seismic spikes that were recorded 14 and 17 seconds before jet impact?

Well, from reading through the thread, you've been given answers regarding 12 second sweep times and clocks not being in agreement. You've also had answers on why people might hear a blast from the aeroplane crash after initially being thrown across the room. You're also waiting (I understand) for confirmation that the level of accuracy/margin of error for the seismograph is appropriate for drawing the conclusion that there were bombs in the basement.

What kind of explanation would actually satify you on this issue?

 

[realitybites]

What kind of explanation would actually satify you on this issue?

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm betting it's something along the lines of:

Bush's cousin, Marvin, personally planted huge explosives in the basement to "soften" the towers' structural support. Inside job, inside job, inside job, inside job, inside job, etc, etc, etc....

 

[Foolmewunz]

Oliver requested

On this thread, the exact question i have is:

If not explosives in the basement of each tower, what is the explanation for the seismic spikes that were recorded 14 and 17 seconds before jet impact?

By which, possibly incorrect, clock?
Mackey already took the seismic timestamp/clock issue apart rather magnificently and then retired because it was such a worthless item as to merit ignoring thereafter.
Apathoid has cleaned your clock ( ) on the radar issue.
You have nothing left.

So, to recap your stance: You're quoting Ross who's evidently cross-referencing two different possible time signatures, EITHER ONE OF WHICH COULD BE WRONG (by 10/15 seconds for the seismic records and by a whopping 25 seconds for the radar).
That covers your 14 and 17 second gaps. Done!

Now, admit you're wrong, apologize and we'll give you marginal credibility. If you continue this Big Lie m.o. and make all these nice folks re-type those post, you're forever a s***-disturbing troll.

 

[Mancman]

Oh I see.

So here is your scenario then?

1. Plant explosives devices in basement.
2. Rig Towers with termite or something other than load sounding explosive devices.
3. Hijack Planes
4. Trigger basement explosives (one) 14 seconds before plane hits
5. Slam plane into Tower.
6. Trigger basement explosive (two) 17 seconds before plane hits.
7. Slam plane into Tower.
8. Wait approx 50 minutes to trigger the quiet explosives in WTC 2
9. Wait same length of time again to trigger quiet explosives in WTC 1.

Anything else you may wish to add ?

God, it really looks even more insane when you see it listed like that.

Hell, if all of these bomb theories were to be believed, it would look like this:

1. Plant bombs/thermite in basement, and throughout building.
2. Hijack planes/remote control bomb-filled cargo planes to target.
3. Fire missile from plane 0.01 seconds before impact.
4. Trigger basement explosions before/with impact.
5. Set off several basement explosions loud enough to be heard 2 miles away in the minutes before collapse, which cause dust clouds to rise.
6. Set off explosion powerful enough to shake a camera a mile away 12 seconds before collapse.
7. Set off explosions at the plane impact level to initiate collapse, and then explosions at every level to allow the buildings to collapse at freefall speed, and propel debris hundreds of feet. And vapourise the 'spire', and pulverise all the.......GAH! I can't go on. It's so stupid.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

No, the clocks are not incorrect. They are time stamped with UTC. The 12-second sweep time could create a margin of error of +/- 6 seconds, which is still not enough to explain the 17 second discrepancy. However, the data are not based on a single radar, they are based on 5 radars, with independent sweeps. This data is processed through software logic to arrive at accurte event times. The data of impact times comes from FAA, and they are accurate to within 1 second.

The radar and seismic data are not the only data. This data is perfectly consistent with a litany of eyewitnesses (i.e. people who were actually there) who said they saw, heard, felt, and were injured by explosions. The explosions were not silent, so please let go of this strawman. "Skin falling off" is consistent high explosives. despite the ridiculous assertions to the contrary.

This is also consistent with the windows being blown out of the lobby of the North tower. It is certainly a much more "Occam Friendly" explanation than a fireball travelling down the elevator shaft.

The "fireball down the elevator shaft" is far-fetched at best. Most of the elevators did not go all the way up to the impact area, thus would not be a conduit for this alleged fireball. THe express elevator that did go all the way had a human being inside of it. He suffered broken ankles, and is alive and well. He was not burned. The elevator that came up from the basement, on the other hand, was blown off its hinges.

You put all of this together and it is clear that it supporters of the OCT are divorced from reality, willing to stretch to absurd lengths to disregard what the evidence clearly shows. Explosions went off in the basements.

 

[Indolent Wretch]

You put all of this together and it is clear that it supporters of the OCT are divorced from reality, willing to stretch to absurd lengths to disregard what the evidence clearly shows. Explosions went off in the basements.

This is all just gravy. You believe the evidence shows explosives. The majority of people do not. Clearly no evidence from the other side is ever going to convince you otherwise. No matter how perfect, no matter how untainted by corruption or authority. You are convinced the evidence proves your case. Fair enough.

But WHY were there explosives? Cheesus Christ don't you think the planes were enough?

If the US government / Men in Black / George Bush Masonic Lodge / Secret Jews in Charge of the World, wanted an excuse to lead the American people into a war and/or applying draconian limits on freedom and/or guaranteeing another term in office and/or whatever the hell else you think was happening... then the planes crashing into the towers and killing a great many people would have been MORE than sufficient.

The collapse of the towers was entirely unnecessary.

I can't see your average New Yorker going, "hell yeah well 3000 people are dead and the city is a ruin, but hey the towers are still just standing sorta, so hey I don't think we should be angry".

There is no need for explosives. Either for our reality, or your fantasy.

Think it through.

 

[MortFurd]

You put all of this together and it is clear that it supporters of the OCT are divorced from reality, willing to stretch to absurd lengths to disregard what the evidence clearly shows. Explosions went off in the basements.
To what end?

The buildings didn't fall over out of their sockets, so that wasn't the point.

The buildings collapsed above the impact point and nearly an hour after the collision, so it wasn't to start the collapse.

What was the need for such massive explosions (if such they were?)

 

[R.Mackey]

I did address Mackey's comments. Mackey was doing essentially what NIST and 9/11 commission were doing. Fudging the numbers. The point is to ignore NIST and ignore 9/11 commission, and go back to the primary data. That being the seismic data, and the radar data. Mackey also brought up propagation times, which are not relevant here. LDEO already takes that into account when they give their numbers.

I'll wait to hear back from Ross, to see what he has to say about the accuracy issue.

You didn't "address" my comments, because it's clear you still don't understand them.

What I did was to show that the seismic data suggests an experimental error on the order of 12 seconds, an error that Ross and Furlong fail to consider.

I'll ask again, do you understand the difference between experimental and random error? It appears that you do not.

I'll be interested to see what Ross has to say, if anything. This will be the second time one of my critiques has been forwarded to him by a member here. Always glad to see a good discussion here, the more the merrier. I just hope he brings some evidence.

 

[Belz...]

Please, with the ad homs already. They're so tired.

Gah! Another fallacy you don't understand.

 

[Belz...]

No. The basement explosives evidently went off 14 and 17 seconds before the planes hit.

Okay... I'll bite.

Why would they set off explosives in the basement BEFORE the crash if they were going to demolish the building from the TOP ?

 

[Belz...]

'Just asking questions' is a reasonable start, I don't have a problem with it. Ignoring answers is where it all falls apart. It's like Intelligent Design, just replace 'I don't see how this bit happened so goddit' with 'evilneocongubimentdidit'.

The problem is, they're NOT just asking questions, they're giving their opinionated answers at the same time. "What could cause this ? A cruise missile!" etc, etc.

 

[dissonance]

The buildings didn't fall over out of their sockets, so that wasn't the point.

The buildings collapsed above the impact point and nearly an hour after the collision, so it wasn't to start the collapse.

What was the need for such massive explosions (if such they were?)

That's exactly my question - why have explosives in the basement that you set off before the planes hit? What's the point? If the Evil Conspirators wanted it to look like planes hit the WTC and then the WTC fell down solely as a result of the planes, why would you set off bombs in the basement before the impact of the planes? That just makes your plan that much more likely to be discovered.

And really, if you are going to be an Evil Conspirator, and set up bombs in the basement for whatever reason, and you've already gone to the trouble of fake hijackings and whatnot, why not make the basement bombs part of the terrorist plot? Why bother to hide the bombs? Make 'em obvious! Make it so that the hijackers planted the bombs and had timers rigged up or something. We're talking about a freaking terrorist attack here - why be subtle? People were expecting things to start blowing up at any moment - remember all those reports of a bomb at the State Department?

 

[Winterfrost]

TS, can you explain why LDEO identified these seismic events as plane impacts? Given their expertise, why would they have identified them as such unless they knew or suspected that they would show up on the seismographs?

Yes, and moreover the oscillations in the building caused by the impacts generate a specific waveform, known as Love waves. These are quite distinct from waveforms generated by explosions.

And even assuming that they went looking for the impact, found something at the approximate time and assumed that this was the impact, don't you think that they would be able to identify the difference between waves caused by an explosion and "Love waves" as described by sleahead, above?

Some references:
http://www.vibrationdata.com/Newsletters/November2001_NL.pdf#search=""love wave" impact WTC"
http://199.6.131.12/en/scictr/watch/seismology/waves.htm

It seems from these references, the impact of the jets into the building would primarily generate "horizontal shear waves" whereas an explosion would generate primarily "impact/compression" type waves.

I'll try to get confirmation of this from one of my friendly neighborhood geophysicists. Of course, you could probably confirm this with a call to LDEO as recommended above.

 

[Belz...]

No, the clocks are not incorrect. They are time stamped with UTC. The 12-second sweep time could create a margin of error of +/- 6 seconds, which is still not enough to explain the 17 second discrepancy.

I think you might've missed this:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1931294&postcount=112

However, the data are not based on a single radar, they are based on 5 radars, with independent sweeps.

Which ones ? Do they overlap ?

This data is processed through software logic to arrive at accurte event times.

Techno-babble. "Software logic" can't invent the truth from diverging sources of information. If the clocks were not in sync, then the computer can't help you unless it's got some point of reference for all 5 radars.

This data is perfectly consistent with a litany of eyewitnesses (i.e. people who were actually there) who said they saw, heard, felt, and were injured by explosions.

You mean like JFK witnesses that heard 2, 3, 5 or 6 shots ? Ever notice that some products you buy can explode when exposed to heat ? Explosions <> Explosives.

"Skin falling off" is consistent high explosives. despite the ridiculous assertions to the contrary.

You ARE aware, of course, that high explosives deal damage by pressure, not heat ?

This is also consistent with the windows being blown out of the lobby of the North tower. It is certainly a much more "Occam Friendly" explanation than a fireball travelling down the elevator shaft.

The explosives couldn't place themselves, so no.

The "fireball down the elevator shaft" is far-fetched at best. Most of the elevators did not go all the way up to the impact area, thus would not be a conduit for this alleged fireball. THe express elevator that did go all the way had a human being inside of it. He suffered broken ankles, and is alive and well. He was not burned. The elevator that came up from the basement, on the other hand, was blown off its hinges.

... and ?

You put all of this together and it is clear that it supporters of the OCT are divorced from reality, willing to stretch to absurd lengths to disregard what the evidence clearly shows. Explosions went off in the basements.

I can do that too, seeker: No, they didn't.