Top Professor receives Stand Down Order from BYU

CptColumbo said:
Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean how often does the President go to Utah? Try to find out the reason for the visit. That might help, but I doubt it. Also, try to find the number of time the Pres. has visited other religious leaders (The Pope for example).
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President Bush visited Utah to speak at a convention of the American Legion that was held here. It was big news around these parts.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,640193001,00.html

and

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/08/20060831-1.html

As you'll see from the Deseret News link, he's visited Utah three times and has met with the leadership of the Mormon church at least twice. Although it's common practice for visiting dignitaries to visit with the Church leadership when they come to Utah. There have been similar visits by President Clinton and Reagan, although I can't find any links (President Clinton was given a book containing his family history by President Hinckley at one point, I believe).

The visit is hardly unusual. As for the timing; blame the American Legion.

As for other leaders, here's an instance of President Bush visiting the Pope:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/europe/19.html

I can't think of any other prominent religious leaders at the moment, or I would do more.
 
Bradk3 said:
The visit is hardly unusual. As for the timing; blame the American Legion.
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Nor am I suggesting that it is. Why assume that he went there in order to discuss Jones?
No, my question was: would they have talked about Jones at all, in passing?


Arkan_Wolfshade said:
Well gee Brumsen, who are you going to believe if you ever get around to asking them? Or are you just going to keep waving your hands, asking leading questions, and feigning innocence?
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OK; here's the deal.
Suggest me a question, and a person to ask it to, the answer to which will settle whether Bush's meeting with Hinckley has anything at all to do with the operative reason in putting Jones on paid leave.
Then I'll ask it, and report back.
 
brumsen said:
uh-huh. That's why Airforce One is hardly ever used, I suppose.
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Yep, they use AF1 all the time for secret influence peddling.

So when the 43 reporters ask, "Where are we going?" they get told, "Oh its a secret meeting to influence the head of the mormon church to silence an uppity faculty at BYU"

Genius, you don't use AF1 for secret opps.
 
brumsen said:
Nor am I suggesting that it is. Why assume that he went there in order to discuss Jones?
No, my question was: would they have talked about Jones at all, in passing?
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Fair enough.

I can only speculate, like everyone else. They would have a lot of other things to talk about: The war, 9/11, the American Legion meeting, Bush's high approval ratings in Utah, etc. It's possible that they may have talked about a boneheaded professor with shoddy science and worthless research, but I don't think it very likely. Take that for what it's worth.
 
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Unfortunately John doe and the others will see this as proof that the engineers and other scientists of the world have reason to be afraid to come out and expose the official story for the "lie" it is.
 
and of course the hole would be, that if engineers and scientists from other countries are not "afraid" to come out (since our laws can't touch them), why haven't they done so yet?
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
Phone and internet service are also readily available in Utah. Face-to-face meetings are soooooo last century.
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Actually, no, they're not. Unlike some Mormons I could mention, we Utah Mormons don't believe in phones. Nor do we believe in using the Internet, as it is a tool of Satan. In fact, technology in general is evil and we must return to a simpler time of buggies and...

Wait. I think I'm confusing myself with the Amish...

My mistake.
 
Bradk3 said:
Actually, no, they're not. Unlike some Mormons I could mention, we Utah Mormons don't believe in phones. Nor do we believe in using the Internet, as it is a tool of Satan. In fact, technology in general is evil and we must return to a simpler time of buggies and...

Wait. I think I'm confusing myself with the Amish...

My mistake.
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I'm sorry, your post didn't quite come through. The string on my soup can came loose. Can you repeat that?
 
brumsen said:
uh-huh. That's why Airforce One is hardly ever used, I suppose.
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Which Air Force One?

The one sitting on the runway where I work every day must mean that the President really lives in Dayton, Ohio. Yep, that's the ticket! He's been running the government from Orville Wright's old home here called Hawthorne Hill. It's often refered to a the "just-north-of-the-Ohio-River White House".

It's just an analytic proposition based on my own experience, and I doubt I could prove it, but I think something is fishy.
 
brumsen said:
Nor am I suggesting that it is. Why assume that he went there in order to discuss Jones?
No, my question was: would they have talked about Jones at all, in passing?
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How the eff would anyone know that?

If I were to guess, I'd say Bush has little to no idea who Jones is and this Mormon leader probably finds him embarrassing and would have no reason to bring his name up.
 
brumsen said:
And I'm not playing games.
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Well, I apologize. Maybe it's just the mood I'm in after dealing with the endless games of the truthers this weekend, but I've had a hard time taking your responses seriously in this thread. As below. I'll go away after this post.

'cause they're mormons?
Does that give a guarantee that they do tell the truth?
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Ah, pursue that line of reasoning!

Anyway... who'd you suggest I ask?
Bush?
Hinckley?
BYU officials? Arkan Wolfshade knows all about them being forthcoming with answers to questions asked about Jones.
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You're on to something!

Are mormons bound to answer at all?
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You're SO CLOSE.

Now, try answering your own questions, for Pete's sake.
 
bjb said:
In any case, we all know that George Bush takes orders from religious leaders, not the other way around.
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May I suggest he takes orders from Laura, and not much of anyone else, but relies on people like VP Cheney and Condi to do his hard thinking for him?

DR
 
chipmunk stew said:
How the eff would anyone know that?

If I were to guess, I'd say Bush has little to no idea who Jones is and this Mormon leader probably finds him embarrassing and would have no reason to bring his name up.
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And this is where the arrogance and self-importance of the denial movement comes in. They really think that Bushco losses sleep at night, knowing that the troofers are just one more smoking gun away from unraveling the whole nefarious plot.

Far more likely is that Bush/Cheney never even heard of any of these idiots.
 
brumsen said:
While arguably Jones has provided good reason to put him on leave, it is nonetheless important to know what the actually operative reason was.

In other words: suppose Bush talked Hinckley into putting pressure on BYU regarding Jones, which then resulted in his being put on leave just before 9/11/06. He would most likely not have asked Hinckley to do so because of Jones' failing to live up to academic standards, and neither would Hinckley have pressured BYU for that reason.

While all this is hypothetical, it does show, IMHO, that we should want to know the operative reason for putting Jones on leave. Even if there are academic reasons for doing so, it may actually have been done by means of an assault on academic freedom.
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Hello again brumsen,

If BYU was a public university, I might agree that the public should know why a professor was being put on leave. BYU is private, however, so it's not really my business. It's also religious, and the Mormon church keeps some secrets close to its vest, which it is and should be free to do so under the US Constitution.

There are many professors put on leave for ethical violations, you know. I have no reason, at this point, to suspect Jones is any different from the others -- and neither do you. It's painfully obvious that Jones has been walking a very fine line for some time, and is disliked by much of the rest of the faculty there, so his dismissal should come as no surprise.

The whole thing about W visiting BYU? (Edit: W didn't even go to BYU, but spoke to BYU officials in Salt Lake City. My bad.) Unless BYU says otherwise, there's no connection. I'll even admit it's possible they did talk about it -- W strikes me as an amiable guy, given to light conversation. He may have an abominable civil rights record and inscrutable fiscal policy, but he can be personable... So what? If he wanted Jones gone, and BYU was prone to acquiesce to his request, he'd have just made a phone call.

What does W's physical presence change? The BYU staff was afraid he'd beat them up? No sir. I don't buy it.

Until we hear something that actually is suspicious, we're chasing ghosts. Let's not bother.
 
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R.Mackey said:
The whole thing about W visiting BYU? Unless BYU says otherwise, there's no connection. What does W's physical presence change? The BYU staff was afraid he'd beat them up? No sir. I don't buy it.
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W never went to BYU. He visited the church leaders in SLC. BYU is in Provo.

As far as wether talking to Pres. Hinckley would produce results? Probably not. BYU has a dean and chairs of it's various departments just like any other university and they, not the church leaders, run the school.

I can't imagine the 1st Presidency or The Quorum of the Twelve directly stepping into BYU affairs unless some HUGE scandal had occurred, like all the faculty drank Coke™ or the entire female student body showed up to class with thier knees and shoulders exposed or something.

Given the blinding speed at wich most bureaucracys operate, wether ecclesiastical, educational or both, it's quite likely that Jones's suspension was in the works weeks if not months in advance of Bush's visit to Salt Lake City. Wich is actually another funny thing about CT's. They always assume that bureaucratic efficeincy will skyrocket whenever required to in order to maintain the viability of the CT.

Until we hear something that actually is suspicious, we're chasing ghosts. Let's not bother.
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WE are not chasing ghosts, that's all Brummy. Probably along with the rest of the "truth" seekers in a few weeks depending how Jones is handled.
 
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