Top Professor receives Stand Down Order from BYU

No. I think you misunderstand me.

I meant to say that even if we have no way of knowing which was the operative reason in putting Jones on leave, it would be a relevant piece of knowledge if it were available.
Not necessarily. You are assigning a value judgement to a piece of evidence that you have not even aquired. What if he was put on leave because of a sexual harrassment lawsuit? Would that be relevant? No. It would be of interest, but until we know if Schroedinger's cat is alive or dead, we can't assign value to it.

That is my assertion. And it is not the kind of assertion for which it even makes sense to support it with evidence.
That makes it speculation.

My further thought was that the photograph provides us with a further incentive to come into possession of this piece of knowledge.
Sadly I have no idea how to proceed with that, though.
Corralation <> causation.
 
No, not really. Officially robbing him of his scholarly credentials will definitely convince plenty of fence-sitters not to listen to him.

Actually, I think this may lead to some rather telling behavior by the so-called scholars.

If he loses his academic credentials, he will either have to demote himself to associate member (putting him in the basement with all the mail-order PhDs) or the scholars will suddenly announce a change to thier membership rules or even declare a special exception for Jones.

Either way, it will be akin to announcing that they aren't really the "Scholars for Truth" as they are the "Steven Jones Fan Club".
 
Not necessarily. You are assigning a value judgement to a piece of evidence that you have not even aquired. What if he was put on leave because of a sexual harrassment lawsuit? Would that be relevant? No. It would be of interest, but until we know if Schroedinger's cat is alive or dead, we can't assign value to it.
I'm sorry, but I haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Are you suggesting that the Jones affair is some kind of quantum superposition?:confused:
AFAIK, you're talking of a different kind of unknowable.

brumsen said:
That is my assertion. And it is not the kind of assertion for which it even makes sense to support it with evidence.
That makes it speculation.
Nope. It's an analytic statement. Nothing to do with either speculation or evidence.

Corralation <> causation.
I know. But I don't see how that remark is relevant to what you quoted.
 
If he loses his academic credentials, he will either have to demote himself to associate member (putting him in the basement with all the mail-order PhDs) or the scholars will suddenly announce a change to thier membership rules or even declare a special exception for Jones.

Nope:
SfT website said:
Currently, Scholars for 9/11 Truth has four categories of members: full members (FM), who have or have had academic appointments or the equivalent; associate members (AM), who have backgrounds and interests relevant to 9/11 research;
(my bolding)
 
I'm sorry, but I haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Are you suggesting that the Jones affair is some kind of quantum superposition?:confused:
AFAIK, you're talking of a different kind of unknowable.
I'm saying, that until you know why Jones was put on leave you can't know if it is relevant.

Nope. It's an analytic statement. Nothing to do with either speculation or evidence.
I think you're being fast and loose with what an analytic proposition is
Kant's version and the a priori/a posteriori distinction
In the Introduction to the Critique of Pure Reason, Kant combines his distinction between analytic and synthetic propositions with another distinction, the distinction between a priori and a posteriori propositions. He defines these terms as follows:

a priori proposition: a proposition whose justification does not rely upon experience
a posteriori proposition: a proposition whose justification does rely upon experience
Examples of a priori propositions include:

"All bachelors are unmarried."
"7 + 5 =12."
The justification of these propositions does not depend upon experience: one does not need to consult experience in order to determine whether all bachelors are unmarried, or whether 7 + 5 = 12. (Of course, as Kant would have granted, experience is required in order to obtain the concepts "bachelor," "unmarried," "7," "+," and so forth. However, the a priori / a posteriori distinction as employed by Kant here does not refer to the origins of the concepts, but to the justification of the propositions. Once we have the concepts, experience is no longer necessary.)

Examples of a posteriori propositions, on the other hand, include:

"All bachelors are happy."
"Tables exist."
Both of these propositions are a posteriori: any justification of them would require one to rely upon one's experience.

The analytic/synthetic distinction and the a priori/a posteriori distinction together yield four types of propositions:

1. analytic a priori

2. synthetic a priori

3. analytic a posteriori

4. synthetic a posteriori

[edit]
The ease of knowing analytic propositions
Part of Kant's argument in the Introduction to the Critique of Pure Reason involves arguing that there is no problem figuring out how knowledge of analytic propositions is possible. To know an analytic proposition, Kant argued, one need not consult experience. Instead, one need merely "extract from it, in accordance with the principle of contradiction, the required predicate..." (A7/B12) In analytic propositions, the predicate concept is contained in the subject concept. Thus in order to know that an analytic proposition is true, one need merely examine the concept of the subject. If one finds the predicate contained in the subject, the judgment is true.

Thus, for example, one need not consult experience in order to determine whether "All bachelors are unmarried" is true. One need merely examine the subject concept ("bachelors") and see if the predicate concept "unmarried" is contained in it. And in fact, it is: "unmarried" is part of the definition of "bachelor," and so is contained within it. Thus the proposition "All bachelors are unmarried" can be known to be true without consulting experience.

It follows from this, Kant argued, first: all analytic propositions are a priori; there are no a posteriori analytic propositions. It follows, second: there is no problem understanding how we can know analytic propositions. We can know them because we just need to consult our concepts in order to determine that they are true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_statement

I know. But I don't see how that remark is relevant to what you quoted.
Just because President Bush met with LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley around the time that Prof. Jones was put on leave does not mean that President Bush's meeting was in any why tied to Prof. Jones' situation. You're putting the cart before the horse.
 
Official White House photograph, published in the Salt Lake Tribune.

So wait a minute. The administration that secretly planned and executed an attack to kill 3000 citizens, and has kept those involved completely tight-lipped about the whole deal, goes to the head of the Mormon church to coerce him to silence a supposed researcher who is getting close to discover the plot, AND HAS AN OFFICIAL PHOTO TAKEN OF THE EVENT AND RELEASES IT TO THE MEDIA?
 
I understand perfectly what you're trying to do. Jumping on every lunatic asshatted theory as if it's some serious intellectual inquiry because you have a fanatical hatred of the policies of the Bush admin.

It's called Bush Derangement Syndrome.

And he's slandering a major religion in the process.

But then the so-called "truth" seekers don't believe that religious bigotry exists. :p
 
So wait a minute. The administration that secretly planned and executed an attack to kill 3000 citizens, and has kept those involved completely tight-lipped about the whole deal, goes to the head of the Mormon church to coerce him to silence a supposed researcher who is getting close to discover the plot, AND HAS AN OFFICIAL PHOTO TAKEN OF THE EVENT AND RELEASES IT TO THE MEDIA?
He's...uhhhh....(!) thumbing his nose at the conspiracy theorists--it's a display of power. It says don't cross me, or I'll ruin your life. Just obvious enough to get the message across to those who know what's up--just subtle enough to fly under the radar of the MSM and its sheeple.


EWW, I got CT on me! Get it off, get it off!
 
So wait a minute. The administration that secretly planned and executed an attack to kill 3000 citizens, and has kept those involved completely tight-lipped about the whole deal, goes to the head of the Mormon church to coerce him to silence a supposed researcher who is getting close to discover the plot, AND HAS AN OFFICIAL PHOTO TAKEN OF THE EVENT AND RELEASES IT TO THE MEDIA?

Don't you see? It's pure genius. It's that last thing you would expect!

Unless you aren't a raving lunatic hellbent on twisting the world to suit your own personal delusions.
 
I think you're being fast and loose with what an analytic proposition is
I've had solid philosophical training, thank you. But would you mind elaborating on how I'm being fast and loose, exactly? Just giving a lengthy quote from wikipedia doesn't explain that.

Just because President Bush met with LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley around the time that Prof. Jones was put on leave does not mean that President Bush's meeting was in any why tied to Prof. Jones' situation. You're putting the cart before the horse.
I do not think that is quite fair.
The situation is that we have two pieces of potential evidence as to what the operative reason was:
1) BYU's statement
2) said photograph.

Now, you might argue that there is no reason at all to think that (2) would be a relevant piece of evidence at all. But now look at the BYU statement:
"Physics professor Steven Jones has made numerous statements about the collapse of the World Trade Center. BYU has repeatedly said that it does not endorse assertions made by individual faculty. We are, however, concerned about the increasingly speculative and accusatory nature of these statements by Dr. Jones. Furthermore, BYU remains concerned that Dr. Jones' work on this topic has not been published in appropriate scientific venues. Owing to these issues, as well as others, the university has placed Dr. Jones on leave while we continue to review these matters."
(my bolding)

So is it so weird to suppose that Jones was accusing government officials, Bush got annoyed, and spoke about that with Hinckley?

So, no need to suppose all this:-
So wait a minute. The administration that secretly planned and executed an attack to kill 3000 citizens, and has kept those involved completely tight-lipped about the whole deal, goes to the head of the Mormon church to coerce him to silence a supposed researcher who is getting close to discover the plot, AND HAS AN OFFICIAL PHOTO TAKEN OF THE EVENT AND RELEASES IT TO THE MEDIA?
Bush could have got annoyed and exerted pressure regardless of what he has to do with 9/11.
 
You just don't want to understand what I'm actually saying, do you? Must be too subtle.
Not this again. Brumsen, take a look at your posts and see how often, and how quickly, they degenerate into "You don't understand what I'm saying." Guess what? We understand what you're saying, Your English is impeccable. Your semantic games are deplorable.

brumsen said:
While all this is hypothetical, it does show, IMHO, that we should want to know the operative reason for putting Jones on leave. Even if there are academic reasons for doing so, it may actually have been done by means of an assault on academic freedom.
"Okay, BYU, no more funny business. What's you're REAL reason for suspending Professor Jones?"
"Um, um, ahh, because he mocks the scientific meth–"
"Out with it!"
"All right! You caught us! We've been ordered by President Bush to assault the academic freedom that Professor Jones continually abuses!"
 
I've had solid philosophical training, thank you. But would you mind elaborating on how I'm being fast and loose, exactly? Just giving a lengthy quote from wikipedia doesn't explain that.
You said, "I meant to say that even if we have no way of knowing which was the operative reason in putting Jones on leave, it would be a relevant piece of knowledge if it were available.

That is my assertion. And it is not the kind of assertion for which it even makes sense to support it with evidence." and then claimed it to be an analytic statement; thus implying that it is equivalent to "bachelors are single" or "tables exist" in its self evidence.

I do not think that is quite fair.
I'm not interested in your opinions; that's what started this tangent.

The situation is that we have two pieces of potential evidence as to what the operative reason was:
1) BYU's statement
2) said photograph.

Now, you might argue that there is no reason at all to think that (2) would be a relevant piece of evidence at all. But now look at the BYU statement:

(my bolding)

So is it so weird to suppose that Jones was accusing government officials, Bush got annoyed, and spoke about that with Hinckley?
You are still assuming a link without showing the link to exist, and on top of it saying that the link probably can't be shown, and that it doesn't matter if it is shown.

So, no need to suppose all this:-

Bush could have got annoyed and exerted pressure regardless of what he has to do with 9/11.
It's called sarcasm. Didn't they cover that in philosophy?
 
You said, "I meant to say that even if we have no way of knowing which was the operative reason in putting Jones on leave, it would be a relevant piece of knowledge if it were available.

That is my assertion. And it is not the kind of assertion for which it even makes sense to support it with evidence." and then claimed it to be an analytic statement; thus implying that it is equivalent to "bachelors are single" or "tables exist" in its self evidence.
Some analytic statements are quite a bit more complicated than that. Note, by the way, that you substituted the wikipedia's phrase "without needing to consult experience" with "self-evidence". There's the pinch.

You are still assuming a link without showing the link to exist, and on top of it saying that the link probably can't be shown, and that it doesn't matter if it is shown.
I am not assuming it, and have never said the latter.

It's called sarcasm.
Thank you for pointing this out to me. But even while it was dripping with sarcasm, the passage did make the point that one had to assume Bush's involvement in 9/11 in order to hypothesize a link between the photograph and BYU's treatment of Jones. Which point needed responding to.
 
We understand what you're saying, Your English is impeccable. Your semantic games are deplorable.
I wasn't worried about linguistic sources for misunderstanding.
And I'm not playing games.

So ask them. They're bound to tell the truth, you know.
'cause they're mormons?
Does that give a guarantee that they do tell the truth?

Anyway... who'd you suggest I ask?
Bush?
Hinckley?
BYU officials? Arkan Wolfshade knows all about them being forthcoming with answers to questions asked about Jones.

Are mormons bound to answer at all?
 
I wasn't worried about linguistic sources for misunderstanding.
And I'm not playing games.


'cause they're mormons?
Does that give a guarantee that they do tell the truth?

Anyway... who'd you suggest I ask?
Bush?
Hinckley?
BYU officials? Arkan Wolfshade knows all about them being forthcoming with answers to questions asked about Jones.

Are mormons bound to answer at all?

Well gee Brumsen, who are you going to believe if you ever get around to asking them? Or are you just going to keep waving your hands, asking leading questions, and feigning innocence?
 
I wasn't worried about linguistic sources for misunderstanding.
And I'm not playing games.


'cause they're mormons?
Does that give a guarantee that they do tell the truth?

Anyway... who'd you suggest I ask?
Bush?
Hinckley?
BYU officials? Arkan Wolfshade knows all about them being forthcoming with answers to questions asked about Jones.

Are mormons bound to answer at all?

If you are going quit screwing around and eventually ask us at some point, could you please do so before you order the police and military to shoot us on sight?

When people are running around making wild unfounded accusations about us, we get just a tad nervous. :p
 
I still don't get it. Even if Bush didn't have anything to do with 9/11 (of course he didn't), they would never take a publicity photo of a meeting in which he is using the presidency to influence an official to silence a citizen.

That kind of crap happens behind closed doors without a photographer present. Heck, no way the president would even be the one to show up near the place because it would lead to questions being asked, and the purpose of his visit would be leaked. Instead, the President would have the other principles brought secretly to the White House, letting as few people as possible know.

How do I know this? Only because I'm not an idiot.
 
I still don't get it. Even if Bush didn't have anything to do with 9/11 (of course he didn't), they would never take a publicity photo of a meeting in which he is using the presidency to influence an official to silence a citizen.

That kind of crap happens behind closed doors without a photographer present. Heck, no way the president would even be the one to show up near the place because it would lead to questions being asked, and the purpose of his visit would be leaked. Instead, the President would have the other principles brought secretly to the White House, letting as few people as possible know.

How do I know this? Only because I'm not an idiot.

Phone and internet service are also readily available in Utah. Face-to-face meetings are soooooo last century.
 

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