Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers?

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No wonder folk here think there was a collapse in NYC on 9-11.
I much prefer getting hit on the head with a bucket of sand than a bucket of gravel or the worst case, a bucket of yesterdays concrete, hardened, and, there is a reason for this that has been completely ignored,

Thanks, I now understand you. I had wondered where you were getting your ideas and I now see that you need to be in hit in the head with a bucket of "yesterdays concrete"
to understand them
 
I went to 75% of F.R. Greening's document WTCREPORT.pdf and have some serious questions. His excel sheets, values for floor, masses etc will surely be correct. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. I admit that I don't understand everything at the moment (it's been awhile), but if you debug a source code you also don't have to know it completely.

Upper block falls

This is assumed by TV coverage, it does not explain why this happened, apse time you already should take other factors into account, the time could be extremely dependent on these factors or maybe not.

Tacitly assumed that the impulsive delivered by the impact is sufficient to rupture...

Why?

The second stage of collapse

Absolutely relevant for the seismic data, but not really relevant for the speed at which the buildings come down.

For now it is sufficient to note that the collapse times calculated without allowing for E1 are already in reasonable agreement with the observed collapse times.

Of course because this is the theoretical minimum time and that should be near free-fall time because in fact section 3.0 of the paper assumes no resistance in any way, in fact point masses with non-elastic collapses merging into each other without any of the mass moving at an other directory

However, to more precisely model the physics of the WTC collapse events, we need to consider the bending and fracturing energy, E1, that must be expended to collapse each floor

Great but this is still under the assumption of all mass falling down in the same direction to break the next floor.

But the initial kinetic energy Ti is equal to (1/2)Nm_f u^2 so the fractional conversion, fc, of kinetic energy to heat is simply,
fc = Q/Ti = 1/(1 + N)

This is an amazing result IMO, but indeed under the assumption no mass is scattered away from floor N to floor N-1 to ... to floor 1

If we assume 50 % of this energy was available to crush concrete, we have 1.2 x 10^9 J available for WTC 1, and 2.5 x 10^9 J available for WTC 2. This is sufficient to crush the concrete on the impacted floor to 175 micrometer particles. Consider now the newly formed mass of (14 + 1) floors of WTC 1, and (29 + 1) floors of WTC 2, impacting on the floor below.

An amazing amount of energy indeed. Again all crushed concrete is assumed to form a new mass to crush the next floor. Check some videos and detailed pictures, it's absolutely impossible to consider this as a first approximation, the mass scatters in all directions, even upwards. Of course the conservation of mass can't be violated, but the part traveling down together with the initial upperblock is not

(n+1)m_floor

but should be

n m_floor +w m_floor =(n+w)m_floor (**** I wrote it wrong at top)

with w the fraction of the mass traveling downwards. Greening didn't use that, also note that w is not constant, it will be a complicated function (dependent on some variables) for which we only know 0< w<1, it should be estimated.

Further small particles are very sensitive to air resistance and the rest of the crap in the air and the so-called terminal speed is reached very quickly, I'm not sure if the factor w can take that into acount or if another factor is needed for that somewhere. Maybe I'm wrong also now and all these factors seem to have not much influence on the theoretical minimum, but it was just something I thought after reading a little bit.


But now it's time to go out and have some beers, my wife is a little bit angry.. "you should marry with your computer" etc..

In what direction should have the building fell. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif
:confused:
 
I was simply making it clear that his post was not welcome and he/she would not elicit a flamed response from me either now or in the future. Quite simple protocol which I didn't realise meant that I should be anything other than firm, would flowery language have made the offence I seem to have caused any less?

Seems like everyone is an amateur moderator on here just itching to intervene.

I didn't realise I was entering a closed shop where we were all time served apprentices not able to speak until we have done our time. I thought it was an open forum however, If the forum owner doesn't want me here expanding the membership of the forum and eliciting further posts I will happily leave. It seems that already I have generated some traffic from the hostile time servers on the forum.

the martyer syndrome
 
If you read back through the posts then you will see that it was you that introduced the tree analogy, NOT ME. I agreed that it was a good analogy to explain to a layman about how the core and trusses worked but put my own limitations on the extent of that analogy. Someone more cynical than me would surmise that you had an agenda bringing trees into it because you probably guessed I knew nothing about this Judy Wood character who it appears has already been the subject of derision on here. Somehow you now think it equates to some kind of point scored over me that I justifiably extended the analogy to suggest that if you cut the top of a tree in a certain plausible way that it tends to topple off the top. If that is too advanced a concept for you then say so because we are really going to have to go back to basics if you don't understand that. This is not about the structure or reaction of wood it is about a law of nature.

My original assertion and subsequent analogy stands.

Relative to other calculations I have seen on here it wouldn't take much. If the forces and energies involved can create pancake then I am pretty sure a topple failure pivoting about the weakened floors is plausible. I saw a photograph on one of these sites where you can actually see the top of the WTC South Tower toppling just before the pancake.

Again it is you getting hung up on trees. You equated density with strength and I showed you that density is not on its own an indicator of such a property. Interestingly wood is porous and not solid as you claim. I would suggest that if you scaled up a tree trunk to the size of the WTC it would look quite porous as well. Secondly as I already pointed out, the fibrous nature of trees gives them their strength and toughness, very much like the fibrous nature of the steel space frame in the WTC.
 
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I didn't request your intervention either.


Yeah, well it's a good thing you're not in charge around here... :D

Just a friendly tip, Billy - it's NEVER a good idea to start bossing people around in threads. You don't own a thread, you can't control who will or will not post in a thread. Fact of the matter is, Belz made a good point, and you don't like it.

Too bad. Grow up.
 
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Yeah, well it's a good thing you're not in charge around here... :D

Just a friendly tip, Billy - it's NEVER a good idea to start bossing people around in threads. You don't own a thread, you can't control who will or will not post in a thread. Fact of the matter is, Belz made a good point, and you don't like it.

Too bad. Grow up.

Strawman.

I'm not bossing anyone around, I'm defending my position firmly. If you can point out ANY single event where I said someone couldn't post in this thread or forum then quote it. Put up or shut up with the strawmen.

Belz didn't make a point. He tried to analogise my opinion with a cartoon the motive of which is clear.

This site is no better than many others where irrational hostility spews forth when you attack the sacred cows of the fundies.
 
I was simply making it clear that his post was not welcome and he/she would not elicit a flamed response from me either now or in the future. Quite simple protocol which I didn't realise meant that I should be anything other than firm, would flowery language have made the offence I seem to have caused any less?

Seems like everyone is an amateur moderator on here just itching to intervene.

I didn't realise I was entering a closed shop where we were all time served apprentices not able to speak until we have done our time. I thought it was an open forum however, If the forum owner doesn't want me here expanding the membership of the forum and eliciting further posts I will happily leave. It seems that already I have generated some traffic from the hostile time servers on the forum.

No, your statement was asanine. If you don't like what someone says, just ignore them. There's no need to tell them to 'buggar off', which, in effect, is what you did.

Like you said, it's an open forum. Which means, you have to accept that people are going to post things you don't want to read or hear. Even in response to your own stupidity.
 
A testimonial from someone who had talked with a high ranking engineer at otis elevator who described "built to demolish towers", has been completely ignored by the posters of this thread.

http://www.rense.com/general48/chargesplacedinWTC.htm

Here is the site that explains how, what that engineer said was done, was actually done.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

More lies.

Now, in bold type face!

Chris, this is also a lie. Please provide testimonial of the 'high ranking engineer' himself.
 
I think this all stems from Belz original "Cartoon" comment, and then your return quip.

His "cartoon" comment was not meant as an insult, but rather was a comment at how things do not behave in the real world like they do with cartoons. I know that appaers obvious, but believe it or not, there are alot of people who come in here and try to convince us of such things, such as the "Cookie Cutter" hole that Flight 77 "should have made" in the Pentagon.

From the start of the ill-tempered postings, all bets were off, and the agression and nasty posts would have come, regardless.

I think if you took the time (and I know you are too busy to do it, and you dont care but..) to look through alot of the threads here, you would find that people who come here with a genuinely inquisitive, as opposed to confrontational attitude, are not treated with hostility.

ANd once again, I am not playing the "moderator wannabe", so get down of your self placed Pedestal, and deal with the ordinary folks that are here Mr. Engineer...

Yours sincerely

Dr. TAM MD, CCFP
 
And a personal attack.

I find this amusing considering the lecture I have been given about how civilised this forum is.

Laughable.

You started it. You brought this on yourself.

Belz is right - you apparently work in some engineering field that has nothing to do with how buildings work - would that be sanitation engineer, perchance?

This forum responds best to facts and evidence. Snide remarks generally engender more snide remarks, and comments that are counterfactual or lack evidence usually result in immediate and sometimes offensive replies. Your unrealistic understanding of building collapse is cartoonish and over-simplified; Belz stated as much; and in response, you started whining and complaining and basically begging Belz to go away. Since then, all you seem to be doing is whining and complaining about how 'unfairly' you've been treated.

Grow up.

(And prove you're an engineer - or at least, an engineer in a field that has some relevance here.)
 
I think this all stems from Belz original "Cartoon" comment, and then your return quip.

His "cartoon" comment was not meant as an insult, but rather was a comment at how things do not behave in the real world like they do with cartoons. I know that appaers obvious, but believe it or not, there are alot of people who come in here and try to convince us of such things, such as the "Cookie Cutter" hole that Flight 77 "should have made" in the Pentagon.

From the start of the ill-tempered postings, all bets were off, and the agression and nasty posts would have come, regardless.

I think if you took the time (and I know you are too busy to do it, and you dont care but..) to look through alot of the threads here, you would find that people who come here with a genuinely inquisitive, as opposed to confrontational attitude, are not treated with hostility.

ANd once again, I am not playing the "moderator wannabe", so get down of your self placed Pedestal, and deal with the ordinary folks that are here Mr. Engineer...

Yours sincerely

Dr. TAM MD, CCFP

TAM, I speak as I find, if someone wants hostility etc I can do sarcasm in spades back. I genuinely pointed out in my posts that I am in effect a virgin to the CT surrounding the WTC and was formulating my own opinions based upon my own knowledge of solid and fluid mechanics. I am more than happy to listen to other opinions but do not expect to be barracked out of the thread. You will notice that once the fundies realised my initial position the attacks blossomed.

I make the offer again that I am more than happy to discuss my opinions but will not tolerate wankers.

I appreciate your attempts to moderate (note the small m) here.
 
You started it. You brought this on yourself.

Belz is right - you apparently work in some engineering field that has nothing to do with how buildings work - would that be sanitation engineer, perchance?

This forum responds best to facts and evidence. Snide remarks generally engender more snide remarks, and comments that are counterfactual or lack evidence usually result in immediate and sometimes offensive replies. Your unrealistic understanding of building collapse is cartoonish and over-simplified; Belz stated as much; and in response, you started whining and complaining and basically begging Belz to go away. Since then, all you seem to be doing is whining and complaining about how 'unfairly' you've been treated.

Grow up.

(And prove you're an engineer - or at least, an engineer in a field that has some relevance here.)

Irrelevant, and if you can't see why then you need to grow up.
 
Mature reply...which believe it or not, I actually expected.

I am sure the occasional flame will come, tis expected with life on the boards. You will find that those who debate you vigorously may use some words you may not like, such as "crap" or others, but as you said, you are new to this, they are not. Some of these guys have been here for years debating people, and I guess occasionally they get fed up, but I cant really speak for individuals.

Debate on, and I will resume watching, listening, and learning.

TAM
 
wrt providing credentials:

They can add weight to ones credibility, but that said, If William Rea is to announce his, than all those debating him should be forced to as well.

TAM
 
Having read about the construction it is my understanding that the core is designed to hold the building up against direct gravity (in compression) and that the envelope of supports that double as the outer wall give the building a moment to resist toppling (compression and tension). the outer walls act as classical buttresses to support the core but the core bears the gravitational forces exerted by itself and the trussed floors.

Regardless of the construction of the core (remember concrete is very good in compression and steel reinforcement is only there to resist tension) I am surprised at the mode of failure for the towers. My expectation would be that the floors would certainly pancake on each other leaving the core remarkably intact and that the top would topple over the core and fall to the side of the building.

http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf section 2.2.1.4, 2.2.1.5, 2.2.2.2, and 2.2.2.6 are all directly relevant.
 
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