Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers?

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Obviously not, since you seem to think that pieces of steel and cement weigh less once they are broken apart.

Of course not mate, thats not what I said. I should not use the word 'solid' block. A lot of mass is scattered in all directions, of course the conservation of mass can't be violated, but the part traveling down together with the upperblock is not

(n+1)m_floor (Greening)

but

(wn+1)m_floor,

with w the fraction of the mass traveling downwards. Greening didn't use that, also note that w is not constant, it will be a complicated function for which we only know 0< w<1
 
Einsteen:

Your english has gotten much better, very quickly. You must be using some sort of software, or you must have gotten lessons. That last post didn't have one single error in it from an english language point of view, and you even used the "British/Aussie" slang "mate".

Good going. If I could learn language as easy, I would speak fluent Chinese.

:)

TAM
 
Einsteen:

Your english has gotten much better, very quickly. You must be using some sort of software, or you must have gotten lessons. That last post didn't have one single error in it from an english language point of view, and you even used the "British/Aussie" slang "mate".

Good going. If I could learn language as easy, I would speak fluent Chinese.

:)

TAM

My physics teacher once said there is less English knowledge needed to understand a physics book than an average novel book. Ok, I take more time to formulate, I had a bad week also, but that's personal
 
Again the word 'block' is wrong.

As fas as I understand Greening considers a block that falls, collects mass etc to the ground, he calls it the first stage of collapse. After the whole bunch reaches the ground he calculates a second stage of collapse, it is consistent with the seismic data, but as far as I understand he calculates this only for the block itself
 
Einsteen:

much better for you to take your time then. Your last two posts have been entirely legible, which will go a long way in helping you express your points clearly here.

TAM
 
I went to 75% of F.R. Greening's document WTCREPORT.pdf and have some serious questions. His excel sheets, values for floor, masses etc will surely be correct. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. I admit that I don't understand everything at the moment (it's been awhile), but if you debug a source code you also don't have to know it completely.

Upper block falls

This is assumed by TV coverage, it does not explain why this happened, ok but you have to start with something, allright then.

Uniform mass distribution

In reality that's not true, hence the final result will differ a little bit, but allright for a first approximation

Non-elastic collision

This is not what we see from the same TV coverage, as an object breaking floors below, all the dust and crushed concrete staying 'under' the block and traveling in the same direction. If you do a gedankenexperiment in which you assume this then it's ok, but for a first approximation of the theoretical minimum collapse time you already should take other factors into account, the time could be extremely dependent on these factors or maybe not.

Tacitly assumed that the impulsive delivered by the impact is sufficient to rupture...

Why?

The second stage of collapse

Absolutely relevant for the seismic data, but not really relevant for the speed at which the buildings come down.

For now it is sufficient to note that the collapse times calculated without allowing for E1 are already in reasonable agreement with the observed collapse times.

Of course because this is the theoretical minimum time and that should be near free-fall time because in fact section 3.0 of the paper assumes no resistance in any way, in fact point masses with non-elastic collapses merging into each other without any of the mass moving at an other directory

However, to more precisely model the physics of the WTC collapse events, we need to consider the bending and fracturing energy, E1, that must be expended to collapse each floor

Great but this is still under the assumption of all mass falling down in the same direction to break the next floor.

But the initial kinetic energy Ti is equal to (1/2)Nm_f u^2 so the fractional conversion, fc, of kinetic energy to heat is simply,
fc = Q/Ti = 1/(1 + N)

This is an amazing result IMO, but indeed under the assumption no mass is scattered away from floor N to floor N-1 to ... to floor 1

If we assume 50 % of this energy was available to crush concrete, we have 1.2 x 10^9 J available for WTC 1, and 2.5 x 10^9 J available for WTC 2. This is sufficient to crush the concrete on the impacted floor to 175 micrometer particles. Consider now the newly formed mass of (14 + 1) floors of WTC 1, and (29 + 1) floors of WTC 2, impacting on the floor below.

An amazing amount of energy indeed. Again all crushed concrete is assumed to form a new mass to crush the next floor. Check some videos and detailed pictures, it's absolutely impossible to consider this as a first approximation, the mass scatters in all directions, even upwards. Of course the conservation of mass can't be violated, but the part traveling down together with the initial upperblock is not

(n+1)m_floor

but should be

n m_floor +w m_floor =(n+w)m_floor (**** I wrote it wrong at top)

with w the fraction of the mass traveling downwards. Greening didn't use that, also note that w is not constant, it will be a complicated function (dependent on some variables) for which we only know 0< w<1, it should be estimated.

Further small particles are very sensitive to air resistance and the rest of the crap in the air and the so-called terminal speed is reached very quickly, I'm not sure if the factor w can take that into acount or if another factor is needed for that somewhere. Maybe I'm wrong also now and all these factors seem to have not much influence on the theoretical minimum, but it was just something I thought after reading a little bit.


But now it's time to go out and have some beers, my wife is a little bit angry.. "you should marry with your computer" etc..
 
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Of course not mate, thats not what I said. I should not use the word 'solid' block. A lot of mass is scattered in all directions, of course the conservation of mass can't be violated, but the part traveling down together with the upperblock is not

(n+1)m_floor (Greening)

but

(wn+1)m_floor,

with w the fraction of the mass traveling downwards. Greening didn't use that, also note that w is not constant, it will be a complicated function for which we only know 0< w<1

The point is, most of the mass will come down on the lower floors. It doesn't matter if it's dust or solid steel. It comes down on the floor and the floor can't handle it. Ergo, it fails.
 
Einsteen, I'm glad you're thinking about this, and I applaud you for struggling through language difficulties, but you're just not thinking about it clearly. Let me try to help.

Upper block falls

This is assumed by TV coverage, it does not explain why this happened, ok but you have to start with something, allright then.
Where else would the block go? I'm confused. Gravity will pull it downward.

Non-elastic collision

This is not what we see from the same TV coverage, as an object breaking floors below, all the dust and crushed concrete staying 'under' the block and traveling in the same direction. If you do a gedankenexperiment in which you assume this then it's ok, but for a first approximation of the theoretical minimum collapse time you already should take other factors into account, the time could be extremely dependent on these factors or maybe not.
No, einsteen, you're wrong. The collision is inelastic. The collision can only be elastic, the alternative, if no energy is dissipated in breaking or bending things when they hit. This is impossible. Greening's asumption is correct. His mathematics allow for fragmentation.

Tacitly assumed that the impulsive delivered by the impact is sufficient to rupture...

Why?
Because in this part of the paper he's considering timing. He addresses the energy required for progressive collapse elsewhere. Thoroughly.

[The second stage of collapse

Absolutely relevant for the seismic data, but not really relevant for the speed at which the buildings come down.
The timing information is derived from seismic data. It's relevant to both.

For now it is sufficient to note that the collapse times calculated without allowing for E1 are already in reasonable agreement with the observed collapse times.

Of course because this is the theoretical minimum time and that should be near free-fall time because in fact section 3.0 of the paper assumes no resistance in any way, in fact point masses with non-elastic collapses merging into each other without any of the mass moving at an other directory
Wrong. The paper assumes resistance from structure and inertia of lower floors. It does not take wind resistance into account -- which is correct. The floors are not falling into a free-stream of air, they're falling into structure, and the structure's resistance is accounted for.

But the initial kinetic energy Ti is equal to (1/2)Nm_f u^2 so the fractional conversion, fc, of kinetic energy to heat is simply,
fc = Q/Ti = 1/(1 + N)

This is an amazing result IMO, but indeed under the assumption no mass is scattered away from floor N to floor N-1 to ... to floor 1
If you notice, the energy budget is far higher than needed. You will see a little bit of mass shed off the sides, but not much. Inelastic, remember? Stuff doesn't bounce off at full speed. You only lose a little mass on the edges, or the unlucky piece of steel that breaks and throws fragments.

You could easily estimate how much fell off the sides by comparing the distribution of debris after the collapse was over. Nearly all of it was in one central pile. The losses were small, perhaps 10% in mass.

If we assume 50 % of this energy was available to crush concrete, we have 1.2 x 10^9 J available for WTC 1, and 2.5 x 10^9 J available for WTC 2. This is sufficient to crush the concrete on the impacted floor to 175 micrometer particles. Consider now the newly formed mass of (14 + 1) floors of WTC 1, and (29 + 1) floors of WTC 2, impacting on the floor below.

An amazing amount of energy indeed. Again all crushed concrete is assumed to form a new mass to crush the next floor. Check some videos and detailed pictures, it's absolutely impossible to consider this as a first approximation, the mass scatters in all directions, even upwards. Of course the conservation of mass can't be violated, but the part traveling down together with the initial upperblock is not

(n+1)m_floor

but should be

(wn+1)m_floor,

with w the fraction of the mass traveling downwards. Greening didn't use that, also note that w is not constant, it will be a complicated function (dependent on some variables) for which we only know 0< w<1, it should be estimated.
The bulk of the tower's mass is not concrete, and is not crushable. Your fudge factor W will be close to 1.

Also remember that mass that "scatters" will only do so by impacting the lower structure very hard. It has already contributed most of the energy that a piece that stayed with the column would have. Your losses are just not high enough to invalidate his hypothesis.

Further small particles are very sensitive to air resistance and the rest of the crap in the air and the so-called terminal speed is reached very quickly, I'm not sure if the factor w can take that into acount or if another factor is needed for that somewhere. Maybe I'm wrong also now and all these factors seem to have not much influence on the theoretical minimum, but it was just something I thought after reading a little bit.
Again, only the stuff that falls off the sides is in a free-stream of air. And we've already discounted it. Fine pieces still in the core structure do not experience meaningful drag.

If you want to explore the effect of pieces falling off the sides, just re-run Greening's calculation but reduce the mass of each floor, say by 5%, 10%, on up to 100%. Find how the calculation behaves as a function of debris loss.

Then take a look at the collapse pile, estimate a debris loss fraction, and see where you wind up with his collapse equations.

Having done this, I believe you'll find that his equations are quite credible, especially considering they are a simplification.
 
I'm glad we agree. The 9/11 "scholar" Judy Woods used the analogy of the top of a tree falling to claim the top section of the towers would have "tipped over" rather than compressing the remainder of the building.

Of course, trees are entirely solid, with a fairly high density, thus the amount of force needed to compress a tree trunk would be absolutely enormous.

In contrast, a building is primarily air, and as such has a very low density. The amount of force required to tip it over would be enormous - I have heard it would have to tip over its centre of gravity by several hundred feet in order to topple.

I recall, from the first time I saw the collapses, I described them as "peeling open like a banana" (I have always been mystified by the "looks like a CD" claim). Additional research confirms my interpretation - the forces of collapse pancaked the floors. As they gave way the building lost rigidity (because the floor trusses made the building rigid) thus, as the upper mass crashed down on the building the exterior cladding peeled outwards like a banana skin. This left the naked, stripped core, some of which remained standing for some time before it too collapsed (since I think we can agree the core of the WTC, having suffered the collapse of the rest of the structure, was not going to remain standing).

-Andrew

Actually we don't agree, you have inferred something from my posts that I did not say.

I have no idea who Judy Wood is but she is probably saying that if you saw the top of a tree off it topples off because the underlying support is sound. I would not argue with that since the damage to the towers would be akin to cutting them off at the top.

For a small section of the top of the tower to topple wouldn't actually take much if the impact damage changed the balance of forces significantly. It would be somewhat like trying to balance to top of a tree that has been sawn through with a wedge removed (as traditional woodsmen cut).

Additionally, your contrast isn't a contrast. All you have said is that dense materials resist compression well and lighter constructions built with high moments of area don't topple easily.

Water is denser than wood (that's why wood floats) but it wouldn't resist compression as well as a comparable thickness of tree. The structure of a tree is tough and strong because it has a fibrous nature, density is not the single factor that determines strength and toughness.

Light framework constructions are designed to transfer loads with safety factors so that they resist certain modes of failure be they buckling, bending or fracture. I think it would be odd for the designer of the building not to make a space frame that could resist the forces of its own weight several times over. To say that the steel space frame would be poor in compression because it is less dense than wood is absurd. I pointed this out in my previous post that the tree analogy is good in principle for the layman to understand how the building works but it is very limited.
 
Actually we don't agree, you have inferred something from my posts that I did not say.

In this
post you said:

The tree is not a good analogy in terms of structural soundness and response to external forces. Wood is a very different material to steel and concrete

I agree with this assertation, thus we are in agreement on this point. Unless you wish to retract your statement?


I have no idea who Judy Wood is but she is probably saying that if you saw the top of a tree off it topples off because the underlying support is sound. I would not argue with that since the damage to the towers would be akin to cutting them off at the top.


Oh so you DO agree with her assertation?


For a small section of the top of the tower to topple wouldn't actually take much if the impact damage changed the balance of forces significantly.

"wouldn't actually take much"
"changed the balances of forces significantly"

See any problem with these two statements in the same sentence?



It would be somewhat like trying to balance to top of a tree that has been sawn through with a wedge removed (as traditional woodsmen cut).


Except a building is not a solid object, like a tree. It is a structure, comprised of many solid objects, and a whole heap of air.


Additionally, your contrast isn't a contrast. All you have said is that dense materials resist compression well and lighter constructions built with high moments of area don't topple easily.


You see no contrast between a tree - which is solid wood - and a building, which consists mainly of air?

Curious...



Light framework constructions are designed to transfer loads with safety factors so that they resist certain modes of failure be they buckling, bending or fracture. I think it would be odd for the designer of the building not to make a space frame that could resist the forces of its own weight several times over.


Do you know the difference between a static load and a live load?



To say that the steel space frame would be poor in compression because it is less dense than wood is absurd. I pointed this out in my previous post that the tree analogy is good in principle for the layman to understand how the building works but it is very limited.

I did not say that. I said the STRUCTURE would be poor in compression because it is mainly air.

If you rip a chunk out of a tree, the top falls on the bottom, which is a rigid solid block of wood directly connected to the ground. Essentially that upper portion is being resisted by the ground itself. Obviously the tree trunk isn't going to compress. As a result the top topples over (there's nowhere else for it to go).

In contrast, rip a chunk out of a building, and the top floors crash down on a structure of solid objects with a heap of air amongst it. The forces of impact greatly exceed the capacity of the structure, so it fails.

Or to put it another way, drop a rock on a tree, and the rock will bounce off the tree and fall away. Drop an enormous rock on a forest and you'll flatten the forest.

A building is not a tree. It is a "forest" of support pillars.

The video of the collapses clearly show the various individual "trees" (column sections) toppling over, just like a tree. But the STRUCTURE (the forest) collapses.

-Andrew
 
William (or is it Paul, I can't remember)

What is the point of your rudeness? So he made an off handed remark, there is no need for you to be snotty and antagonist about it, especially since you have not been on these boards nearly as long as he.

Put us all on ignore if it will make you think clearer, or make you less angry.

TAM
 
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Actually we don't agree, you have inferred something from my posts that I did not say.

I have no idea who Judy Wood is but she is probably saying that if you saw the top of a tree off it topples off because the underlying support is sound. I would not argue with that since the damage to the towers would be akin to cutting them off at the top.

For a small section of the top of the tower to topple wouldn't actually take much if the impact damage changed the balance of forces significantly. It would be somewhat like trying to balance to top of a tree that has been sawn through with a wedge removed (as traditional woodsmen cut).
bull stuff! A structure, whether it be tree or building, topples because the center of mass has been moved outside the footprint of its suppport. This is easy on a long, slender structure, such as a radio tower, or a tree.
For a part, or all, of the twin towers to topple, the CG would have to move more than 100 feet laterally, or 141 feet diagonally. The reason the upper part "toppled" was that the remaining supports had moved to one side of the building (one side failed)
Additionally, your contrast isn't a contrast. All you have said is that dense materials resist compression well and lighter constructions built with high moments of area don't topple easily.

Water is denser than wood (that's why wood floats) but it wouldn't resist compression as well as a comparable thickness of tree. The structure of a tree is tough and strong because it has a fibrous nature, density is not the single factor that determines strength and toughness.
water resists compression better than most solids-in fact, if you fil a cylinder of steel with water, and try to compress it with a steel piston, you wiil fail the steel, either piston or cylinder

What, however, does al this have to do with thye CG being outside the base?
Light framework constructions are designed to transfer loads with safety factors so that they resist certain modes of failure be they buckling, bending or fracture. I think it would be odd for the designer of the building not to make a space frame that could resist the forces of its own weight several times over. To say that the steel space frame would be poor in compression because it is less dense than wood is absurd. I pointed this out in my previous post that the tree analogy is good in principle for the layman to understand how the building works but it is very limited.
you will find that the failure mode of every steel part was either bending, or buckling (which is a fancy name for bending due to compressive instability)
That sort of thing happens when the designed " Light framework construction" is severly compromised.
 
William (or is it Paul, I can't remember)

What is the point of your rudeness? So he made an off handed remark, there is no need for you to be snotty and antagonist about it, especially since you have not been on these boards nearly as long as he.

Put us all on ignore if it will make you think clearer, or make you less angry.

TAM

I was simply making it clear that his post was not welcome and he/she would not elicit a flamed response from me either now or in the future. Quite simple protocol which I didn't realise meant that I should be anything other than firm, would flowery language have made the offence I seem to have caused any less?

Seems like everyone is an amateur moderator on here just itching to intervene.

I didn't realise I was entering a closed shop where we were all time served apprentices not able to speak until we have done our time. I thought it was an open forum however, If the forum owner doesn't want me here expanding the membership of the forum and eliciting further posts I will happily leave. It seems that already I have generated some traffic from the hostile time servers on the forum.
 
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