Loose Change - Part IV

[brumsen]

I note you are in Belgium. What is your dog in this fight?

You may know that Belgian and Dutch soldiers are among those being sent as 'peacekeeping' forces in post-9/11 warzones.
Another thought: US debts are growing near-exponentially as a result of post 9/11 war expenditure, which is likely to have dire consequences for the world economy.

So I'd like to be sure that what is at the basis of these conflicts has been researched properly.

That enough of an answer for you?

 

[Darth Rotor]

You may know that Belgian and Dutch soldiers are among those being sent as 'peacekeeping' forces in post-9/11 warzones.
Another thought: US debts are growing near-exponentially as a result of post 9/11 war expenditure, which is likely to have dire consequences for the world economy.

So I'd like to be sure that what is at the basis of these conflicts has been researched properly.

That enough of an answer for you?

1. The American debt will have a dire consequence on the US economy for about the next generation as the Viet Nam "guns and butter" policy of LBJ did. Is your real worry that American largesse to NATO will decrease? When I last checked, 25 cents of each dollar spent in NATO (19 nations then, just up from 16) was American money.

The basis of these conflicts researched properly?

That train has left the station long since, so at this point it is all academic. The die has been cast. But if you want to flog dead horses, can you tell me why Belgium went along with NATO attacking a European nation for the benefit of Muslims and Albanians? Talk to me on the rationale for that one.

With a pint of beer offered, I'd suggest any European look to the security problems in Europe today, specifically the chicanery in Brussels, the farce that is the WEU and EURO Corps, the decison to drop borders in the late 1990's without securing Southern Europe's borders, and the even quainter farce known as Independent European Security Identity . . . before casting a wary eye on Washington. Yes, I had the privilege of spending somt time in NATO and dealing with NATO matters, so I close this comment with my pleasant surprise at ISAF's work in Afghanistan.

As we are nominally citizens of members states in the same alliance, allegedly a collective security organization that meets both Europe's and America's needs, I suppose your interest in American security policy is well raised.

What's that got to do with 9/11? The collective security arrangement failed to defend America from an assymetrical attack. Oh, and when can we bring the boys home from Europe? Are you ready to protect yourselves yet?

DR

 

[JamesB]

Is posted at 9-11 Blogger.

The structures he engineers are oil rigs:



That last job will be used against him when he gets into the crosshairs of the no-planers. Brown & Root (now known as Kellogg, Brown & Root) is a subsidiary of Halliburton.

Someone post that over on the LC forum and see how long it takes them to start denouncing him as a Dick Cheney plant. I say 20 minutes.

 

[JamesB]

You may know that Belgian and Dutch soldiers are among those being sent as 'peacekeeping' forces in post-9/11 warzones.
Another thought: US debts are growing near-exponentially as a result of post 9/11 war expenditure, which is likely to have dire consequences for the world economy.

So I'd like to be sure that what is at the basis of these conflicts has been researched properly.

That enough of an answer for you?

You have a funny definition of exponential. The US federal deficit has been decreasing for 3 straight years. In relation to the size of their economies, the public debt of Belgium is about 50% greater than that of the US.

I am not very familiar with the Belgians, but ever since Srebrenica, the concept of Dutch "peacekeepers" is unsettling.

 

[brumsen]

You have a funny definition of exponential. The US federal deficit has been decreasing for 3 straight years. In relation to the size of their economies, the public debt of Belgium is about 50% greater than that of the US.

I wonder if you're not confusing the national debt and the federal deficit. See here, e.g.
That aside: it's not as if the US economy's size is irrelevant when discussing the impact of US debt on world economy. Moreover, it's important what share of that debt is 'owned' by foreign creditors.

I am not very familiar with the Belgians, but ever since Srebrenica, the concept of Dutch "peacekeepers" is unsettling.

You might like to read this:

What it does clarify is the desperate plight of Dutchbat - the beleaguered, demoralised Dutch soldiers who had the responsibility in July 1995 for implementing the safe havens policy. It describes a crazily conceived international figleaf (liberal interventionism on the cheap) with ludicrous terms of engagement, which amounted to the misplaced belief that the mere presence of a UN force was a sufficient deterrent to the Bosnian Serbs. The air support that might have protected the 8,000 massacred in Srebrenica - which Dutchbat called for - never materialised courtesy of a jittery UN. It was an impossible mission, all now agree; many fond illusions in the international community about a new era of peacekeeping died along with the Bosnian Muslims, and it was largely a matter of chance that it happened on the Dutch watch.

Wariness of impossible UN missions has led to a very cautious approach to sending troops to Afghanistan, and has probably been a reason for not sending any to Lebanon.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Quote:
What it does clarify is the desperate plight of Dutchbat - the beleaguered, demoralised Dutch soldiers who had the responsibility in July 1995 for implementing the safe havens policy. It describes a crazily conceived international figleaf (liberal interventionism on the cheap) with ludicrous terms of engagement, which amounted to the misplaced belief that the mere presence of a UN force was a sufficient deterrent to the Bosnian Serbs. The air support that might have protected the 8,000 massacred in Srebrenica - which Dutchbat called for - never materialised courtesy of a jittery UN. It was an impossible mission, all now agree; many fond illusions in the international community about a new era of peacekeeping died along with the Bosnian Muslims, and it was largely a matter of chance that it happened on the Dutch watch.

Wariness of impossible UN missions has led to a very cautious approach to sending troops to Afghanistan, and has probably been a reason for not sending any to Lebanon

UN dual key RoE got a lot of people killed, by inaction, who didn't need to die. The event you related was part of the reason NATO got the US to play, and the only way the US military would play was with RoE that allowed some ass kicking to be an option: no BS from the UN building in New York.

You do recall, I hope, that the Dutch did in fact send troops to Iraq?

DR

 

[Calcas]

Someone post that over on the LC forum and see how long it takes them to start denouncing him as a Dick Cheney plant. I say 20 minutes.

I finally signed up over there 2 days ago. I made one post asking if anyone ever looked into answers and explanations provided on other boards. I listed 3 or 4 links including this one.

20 minutes later the post was removed and I had some comment on my profile saying that I was banned...reason listed was "obvious troll."

Yep. They're really looking for the truth.

 

[brumsen]

Is your real worry that American largesse to NATO will decrease? When I last checked, 25 cents of each dollar spent in NATO (19 nations then, just up from 16) was American money.

No, that's not my worry really. It might interest you, by the way, to know how much of these 25 cents is money borrowed from other nations.

The basis of these conflicts researched properly?

That train has left the station long since, so at this point it is all academic. The die has been cast. But if you want to flog dead horses, can you tell me why Belgium went along with NATO attacking a European nation for the benefit of Muslims and Albanians? Talk to me on the rationale for that one.

You mean the Kosovo war? Well, this gives a pretty good overview I think.
Not sure why you ask this though. And your phrasing, "for the benefit of.." I find rather tendentious.

With a pint of beer offered, I'd suggest any European look to the security problems in Europe today, specifically the chicanery in Brussels, the farce that is the WEU and EURO Corps, the decison to drop borders in the late 1990's without securing Southern Europe's borders, and the even quainter farce known as Independent European Security Identity . . . before casting a wary eye on Washington. Yes, I had the privilege of spending somt time in NATO and dealing with NATO matters, so I close this comment with my pleasant surprise at ISAF's work in Afghanistan.

Schengen and so on? The problem is mostly perceived as being a problem of economic refugees, not one of security. But go on, convince me that that should be otherwise.

As we are nominally citizens of members states in the same alliance, allegedly a collective security organization that meets both Europe's and America's needs, I suppose your interest in American security policy is well raised.

What's that got to do with 9/11? The collective security arrangement failed to defend America from an assymetrical attack.

Yes, this was my point: let's be absolutely sure that your last sentence can be stated with confidence.

Oh, and when can we bring the boys home from Europe? Are you ready to protect yourselves yet?

Against what threat?

 

[brumsen]

UN dual key RoE got a lot of people killed, by inaction, who didn't need to die. The event you related was part of the reason NATO got the US to play, and the only way the US military would play was with RoE that allowed some ass kicking to be an option: no BS from the UN building in New York.

JamesB insinuated that the Dutch were to blame for Srebrenica.

You do recall, I hope, that the Dutch did in fact send troops to Iraq?

Yes. And I still regret it. Why?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Oh, and when can we bring the boys home from Europe? Are you ready to protect yourselves yet?

Against what threat?

My point, exactly. So why is it that you Belgians aren't marching in the streets, as has been done many times in South Korea and Okinawa, to get the American Army of Occupation out of Europe?

You do recall, I hope, that the Dutch did in fact send troops to Iraq?

Yes. And I still regret it. Why?

Why? You are Belgian.

Oh, wait, were Dutch troops defending your borders from the Germans? The French? Luxembourg? Or is the regret tied to Dutch send troops to Iraq, maybe Belgium has to ante up a few more lads for Kosovo, or other Balkan NATO taskings, where the food isn't as good. (Yeah, been to Belgium, you can't get a bad meal there in my experience. )

DR

 

[brumsen]

Why? You are Belgian.

No. I am in Belgium, but I am a Dutch citizen.

But, DR - I get the feeling that when I react to your insinuations with substantive points, you just ignore them.

 

[LashL]

I finally signed up over there 2 days ago. I made one post asking if anyone ever looked into answers and explanations provided on other boards. I listed 3 or 4 links including this one.

20 minutes later the post was removed and I had some comment on my profile saying that I was banned...reason listed was "obvious troll."

Yep. They're really looking for the truth.

Hi, Calcas. I think I saw your post at LC. At least, I saw one that sounds like what you have described above, and I wondered how long it would last

 

[JamesB]

JamesB insinuated that the Dutch were to blame for Srebrenica.


Yes. And I still regret it. Why?

I never said they were solely responsible, but even the Dutch government admits they were responsible.

The army chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Ad van Baal, stepped down a day after the cabinet quit over a report that Dutch leaders share blame for a massacre of Muslims by Bosnian Serbs in Srebrenica in 1995. General van Baal was deputy head of the armed forces in 1995 when about 200 lightly armed Dutch soldiers in charge of protecting refugees in a United Nations safe haven had to stand by as Bosnian Serb forces overran the area. The Bosnian Serbs separated women and children and deported them on buses and then, out of sight of the Dutch peacekeepers, executed about 7,000 men and boys in nearby fields and villages.
Marlise Simons (NYT)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E1D9173FF93BA25757C0A9649C8B63&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fI%2fImmigration%20and%20Refugees

 

[milesalpha]

Just to quibble, it looks like the Dutch TOOK responsibility, as opposed to WERE responsible.

 

[apathoid]

Breaking news, this may be it...

http/s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11448

Oh.My.God.

They've interviewed a bunch of eyewitnesses who say a low flying jetliner hit the Pentagon, so naturally that must mean it was sooper-seekrit drone fitted with missile pods(with 757 debris scattering munitions) that fired on the Pentagon before pulling up, turning its cloak shields on and flying away ....

 

[negativ]

Yep. They're really looking for the truth.

They (at least on the LC forums - I haven't really spent much time elsewhere in CT land) remind me very strongly of a religious movement, argubly a cult. The general attitude of the board is very similar to that of Rapture Ready.

Only they have The Truth, and it is their duty to preach their gospel to the unsaved. The Enemy, of course, hopes to enslave humanity and keeps most of the sheeple asleep through his total control of all media. Anyone who opposes The Truth is an agent of The Enemy attempting to corrupt the minsd of the Faithful and make them lose faith. The Faithful are kept in relative social isolation by means of banning all non-believers.

They believe a Great War between The Truth and The Enemy is coming, and they have a special elite role to play in the outcome of that war. They will, of course, defeat The Enemy ANY MINUTE NOW, because the End is Nigh.

 

[Darth Rotor]

No. I am in Belgium, but I am a Dutch citizen.

But, DR - I get the feeling that when I react to your insinuations with substantive points, you just ignore them.

Oh, you are a Dutchman? OK, I understand better. Danke.

My remarks on your priority of concern stand, as they did 10 years ago when I asked one of the Dutch officers I was working with why Europe still needed Americans on their soil for their security.

The simple answer is, and was, Europe are collectively unwilling to foot the bill.

DR

 

[DavidJames]

They believe a Great War between The Truth and The Enemy is coming, and they have a special elite role to play in the outcome of that war. They will, of course, defeat The Enemy ANY MINUTE NOW, because the End is Nigh.

and do so without ever leaving their seat in front of the computer.

 

[Darth Rotor]

and do so without ever leaving their seat in front of the computer.

That is because the other window is opened to their Porno collection.

DR

 

[WildCat]

Oh.My.God.

They've interviewed a bunch of eyewitnesses who say a low flying jetliner hit the Pentagon, so naturally that must mean it was sooper-seekrit drone fitted with missile pods(with 757 debris scattering munitions) that fired on the Pentagon before pulling up, turning its cloak shields on and flying away ....

People saw a helicopter, a small commuter plane, a C-130, a 757, a missile, a white jet, a corporate jet, etc etc.... I am coming to the conclusion that many things happened at once to completely confuse everyone, to create a huge diversionary tactic

OMFG! They got it all figured out now!

Starbuck Yankee Turnbuckle
Let the dog out of the yard. I repeat: Let the dog out of the yard.