Loose Change - Part IV

[JamesB]

I would like someone with more background than me to listen to this guy. He seems to be making some major points, that I can't refute, but I do not have the background some of you have...

Mainly he says that impact damage plus the fires, could not have started the collapse. Says the fires didnt reach higher than 800 or 900 farenheit, as the glass would have blown out of the windows. Says the steel, even in the inner columns, didnt reach temps above 550F.

Some of you guys may wanna give it a close listen, cause the way fetzer is treating him, I think they are gonna use alot of what he has to say as new ammo...

Did you catch the part where he said a hot fire would warp the panels on the outside. Huh? Did he read the NIST report? They did! They were all warped out of shape.

 

[Kent1]

A while back I have spoken with Steven Chastain. http://stephenchastain.com/index.html
He is the book author from where Judy got her photos at the bottom here
http://scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlAluminumGlows_1Mar06.html

That's not aluminum.You can find correct photos elsewhere online or you can read his website. Now Steven has made at his website regarding the molten metal flowing from the towers.


He comments shoot down the scholars both Judy and Jones
http://stephenchastain.com/metaltalk.htm
See threads starting with: Trade Center - Molten Flows & Structural Failure
First commenting on the wrong photo:
End to Aluminum Rumors:
Periodically, someone contacts me requesting material for their project or web site, which I am happy to supply. However, there is no guarantee that it will be accurately posted. Such appears to be the case in an aluminum article on the web. The owner of the site contacted me and I supplied a few articles and several photos. Although the majority of the material is accurately posted, two cupola photos appear in a group of aluminum melting photos. The cupola photos should appear in the iron melting section. Such a mistake is understandable when the material is being posted by a webmaster who does not have any particular knoweledge or interest in the material. Getting corrections can be a daunting task, even when the errors are apparent to the web site owner.
I can not guarantee the accuracy of any third party posting of my material. In the future, if there is any question regarding the posting or interpretation of my material, please contact me for clarification.

I will be happy to answer any questions regarding the interpretation of the posted photos.

Sorry to hear that there was such confusion due to the misplaced photos. My material is spread around in 45+ countries and there are probably other postings that may be subject to clarification.

When in doubt, ask me.

Stephen D. Chastain




Now on molten metal coming from the towers:

Several times over the last year I have been asked to comment on a photo of one of the Trade Center Towers. The photo shows a molten flow from one of the windows. The flow falls down along the building. It appears orange and turns to a gray color as it cools.

The questions usually want me to address "Is this photo a fake?" and "Is the flow steel or aluminum?" "Is this situation possible?"

First, I will address the temperature range, then the color of the flow.

I am working in imperial units and temperature in degrees F

Metals lose about 50% of their strength at 60% of their melting temperature. This is common knowledge and may be found in any undergraduate text regarding "Fracture and Deformation of Materials."

If the approximate melting temperture of steel is 2750 F the the material would be plastic at 1650 F. Even assuming a safety factor of 3, you would expect the bolts or other structural members to deform and fail near this temperature, especially with the additional weight if a jet air liner. I would assume that the live load calulations did not include the typical office equipment and an airliner plus a factor of 3. THEREFORE I assume that the flow is not steel and that the temperature of the steel members at the time of the photo is less than 1650 F.

Assuming that the flow would be molten aluminum from the airliner and the color of molten aluminum is silver then why is the flow orange?

The color of pure molten aluminum is silver, It has an emissivity of .12. Steel has an emissivity of .4 and appears orange in the temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissitivty of aluminum oxide is .44 and also appears orange in the melting temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissivity of plate glass is .937 It begins to soften at 1000 F and flows around 1350 F. Silica has an emissivity of .8

Copper oxide also has an emissivity of .8. however I will assume that their effect is negligible.

Aluminum oxidizes readily in the foundry under ideal melting conditions. Large surface area relaltive to thickness, turbulence, the presence of water or oil greatly increases the oxidation of aluminum. A jet airliner is made of thin aluminum sheet and most probably suffered conderable oxidation especially in contact with an open flame and being in contact with jet fuel. If you dont believe this, try melting a few soda cans over coals or open flame. If you are lucky you will end up with only 50% aluminum oxide. However, the cans may completely burn up.

The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si = 2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similay and likey to be entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tensionis so high is is almost impossible to separate them.

THEREFORE assuming that the flow consist of molten aluminum and considerable oxides, and assuming that the windows in the trade center were plate glass and also in a plastic state and that they were also likely entrained in the molten aluminum. I would expect the flow to appear to be orange in color. Especially since both the entrained materials have emissivities equal to or more than twice that of iron.

Also since dross cools to a gray color and glass with impurities also turns dark. I would expect that the flow would darken upon cooling.

I would also suggest that not only is the photo possible, but entirely likey.

Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail well below the metling temperature. The flow is likely to be a mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color.

Stephen D. Chastain

 

[ihaunter]

In case anyone should doubt gumboots powers

My 1fps is based on a car which came through the barrier arm - it only moved position once every second (roughly).

A Pentagon spokesperson tells Popular Mechanics that the video was taken with a Philips LTC 1261 security camera and recorded at one frame per second.

Debunking 9/11 Myths page 60

 

[brumsen]

Holy cow! They basically discredit his craziest theory (thermite) because it isn't crazy enough for them!

It looks like I got off that particular train in time...

On the other hand - a more charitable reading of the Wood & Reynolds thing is that basically their ideas are so weird they couldn't stay within the "Scholars". And their piece says more about how pathetic they are, than about the remaining "Scholars".
(You might also want to check out this brilliant piece by Reynolds and Rajter on me... )

But I suspect they will argue themselves into irrelevance. As was said, it will be interesting to see what Fetzer will do. I tell you he's capable of staying with the Jones faction and just go on spouting his no-plane stuff and the like.

Do we take bets here?

 

[Brainster]

It looks like I got off that particular train in time...

On the other hand - a more charitable reading of the Wood & Reynolds thing is that basically their ideas are so weird they couldn't stay within the "Scholars". And their piece says more about how pathetic they are, than about the remaining "Scholars".
(You might also want to check out this brilliant piece by Reynolds and Rajter on me... )

Yes they are nuts. Rajter is getting a lot of credibility as if that Holocaust Denial post never existed.

But I suspect they will argue themselves into irrelevance. As was said, it will be interesting to see what Fetzer will do. I tell you he's capable of staying with the Jones faction and just go on spouting his no-plane stuff and the like.

Do we take bets here?

Fetzer's absolutely sticking with Jones. I mean, look at the folks who spoke on C-Span. The only no-planer was Jimmy Walter, and we all know why he was given his ten seconds.

This was planned in LA if not on the phone earlier. Jones really started it with his attacks on the no-planers a couple-three days ago. We all saw Killtown get his Banned From Loose Change badge when--quite by coincidence I'm sure--Dylan and company were out of town. KT clearly knew it was coming as well.

My prediction: Despite significant defection from the "Scholars", Fetzer manages to remain a coalition leader because he keeps everybody happy enough. Alex Jones and Dylan Avery/Looser Than Words denounce Killtown and his ilk. The "movement" becomes ever more insular.

 

[Grundar]

About the chemtrail tread

Awww, I do not have "permission to view this topic."

Tread moved from the LC lounge to somewhere. I couldn't see it either.
/Hans

 

[T.A.M.]

So anyone have any comments wrt what this Pegelow character had to say. He claims that the Pancaking couldn't have occured, and that the temps of the fires, which he says were minimal, couldnt have even weakened the steel, and hence the collapse couldnt have begun through damage via planes and fires alone. he says there had to have been a 3rd factor, which he and fetzer, of course, alude to as bombs or explosives placed in the WTC.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I haven't listened to it yet, but unless he presents anything more than his opinion on the matter then it is moot.

 

[WildCat]

So anyone have any comments wrt what this Pegelow character had to say.

I'd be interested in how he came to his conclusions about the fire temps, etc. because it directly contradicts the NIST reports. Did he conduct his own study? What was his methodology? Where is it published? Where and how did he get his data?

 

[Gravy]

A while back I have spoken with Steven Chastain. http://stephenchastain.com/index.html
He comments shoot down the scholars both Judy and Jones

Well, gosh if we don't learn something new every day at the ol' JREF forum! Great post, Kent1. I've always argued that the material flowing from the south tower was most probably aluminum with other materials entrained, in part because I've held blobs of formerly molten aluminum from the WTC that had clearly cooled in flight. But I never looked into it further, and I never considered aluminum oxide, or, until a couple of weeks ago, glass.

I just want to thank Kent1 for his posts here. He takes on complex subjects that most people shy away from, and he probably has the highest "interesting new content per quote" ratio of anyone here.

 

[Gravy]

In case anyone should doubt gumboots powers


Debunking 9/11 Myths page 60

Well done, gumboot and ihaunter. That's a slower frame rate than I expected.

 

[Mancman]

I would like someone with more background than me to listen to this guy. He seems to be making some major points, that I can't refute, but I do not have the background some of you have...

Mainly he says that impact damage plus the fires, could not have started the collapse. Says the fires didnt reach higher than 800 or 900 farenheit, as the glass would have blown out of the windows. Says the steel, even in the inner columns, didnt reach temps above 550F.

Some of you guys may wanna give it a close listen, cause the way fetzer is treating him, I think they are gonna use alot of what he has to say as new ammo...

The windows thing is tricky, because the floors with the worst fires would have lost many windows in the initial impacts anyway. The NIST reports do have a section about window breakage, which rose over the course of the fires, though I can't remember if that was mainly due to fires or trapped victims breaking them.

 

[chipmunk stew]

I just want to thank Kent1 for his posts here. He takes on complex subjects that most people shy away from, and he probably has the highest "interesting new content per quote" ratio of anyone here.

Absolutely. If you search on his posting history, it's basically a long list of substantive, original material.

 

[gumboot]

In case anyone should doubt gumboots powers


Debunking 9/11 Myths page 60

ph34r my p0w3r!!!!111!!1111ONE11!!!

-Andrew

 

[gumboot]

A while back I have spoken with Steven Chastain.

Excellent post Kent1 and thank you for the very interesting information. I had never even thought of glass.

-Andrew

 

[Belz...]

ph34r my p0w3r!!!!111!!1111ONE11!!!

I think your modem is about to disconnect!

 

[Kent1]

Well, gosh if we don't learn something new every day at the ol' JREF forum! Great post, Kent1. I've always argued that the material flowing from the south tower was most probably aluminum with other materials entrained, in part because I've held blobs of formerly molten aluminum from the WTC that had clearly cooled in flight. But I never looked into it further, and I never considered aluminum oxide, or, until a couple of weeks ago, glass.

I just want to thank Kent1 for his posts here. He takes on complex subjects that most people shy away from, and he probably has the highest "interesting new content per quote" ratio of anyone here.

Thanks,... now if I can only learn how to fix typos faster in my posts.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Thanks,... now if I can only learn how to fix typos faster in my posts.

Someone needs to FOIA the radar tapes from the LaGuardia and Newark Towers, likewise White Plains and Tito burrough. The Newark, La Guardia, and Kennedy TCA has considerable radar coverage. Primary returns. Come to think of it, there is a lot of FAA stuff that is apparently STILL not released. There are a lot of stories lurking about regarding numerous controllers, their radio tapes, their radar tapes, and confiscation by their supervisors.

Why does this matter? It ties into charges of a cover up.

I just got done reading from that jerk from Texas A & M and his abuse of Jones. His 'there was no plane' crap, particularly as regards Pentagon, makes me see red. Not happy with photo of a landing gear obviously sheared from a main mount is lying in the freaking street.

It occurs to me that the radar tapes from LaGuardia, White Plains, Newark, Tito Burrough, and a whole host of other local airports would show primary returns/blips of the first aircraft that hit WTC 1. The news would have caught the one that hit WTC 2, but so would the radar tapes.

I am sure the NTSB had to have seen them.

I want to know: why is this info being covered up? Or, is there a place where this data is available to the public?

The other issue is the subpoena of American Airlines information, and how they blocked efforts to track a particular flight that they apparently had a clue was missing or late.

I suspect a lot of this cover up stuff is "people covering their arses for fear of being the scapegoat." But it irks me that the story is only half told.

EDIT: his comparison of a C-130 (travelling at less than 200 knots) with a 757 travelling at 400+ knots and damage estimates/wreckage comparisons) ignores the formula for kinetic energy transfer:

KE = 1/2 M* V^2
And Momentum = M * V

It is so disgusting to see so called educated people ignore simple physics. I am not even a PhD and I get this. *rollseyes*

DR

 

[Hellbound]

Thanks,... now if I can only learn how to fix typos faster in my posts.

Hey, we're more than willing to overlook typos, if the content is good

Now if your arguments are vaccuous AND you have typos, well, that's a different matter (Huntsman begins slowly sharpening his axe).

 

[DavidJames]

Recall the school trip Dylan and friends touted...Here is "merc's" big find. Maybe someone here who speaks CT better than I can interpret as I can't figure out what he's trying to say.

So here's what happened.

We (Myslef, Dylan, and "Lyte Trip") went to confirm that Waleed Alshehri lived there.

The first neigbor was SPOOKY!

She said "we don't want to talk to you", then angrily fired questions off like "Why now? Who are you? What is this for? What's your name, give me a business card".

Very bad scene.

Then we actually interviewed a woman who was made contact by the Boston Globe because she didn't want to speak about it (bastards). She lived next door to Diane Albritton, the house I was knocking on next door to her where no one was answering. Diane was the most vocal person about Waleed's activities. In short, this woman positively identified Waleed Alshehri, the pic still being used today by the FBI.

This causes a major problem for the official story! This is proof that they are protecting a Saudi double agent, who was most lilely used for a wargame drill which went hot last minute.

They are omitting his Vienna history from the official story. We now have proof he lived there and WAS the son of a saudi diplomat and apparently was alive after 9/11. We can only guess on the alive part, because we have NEVER seen a pic of the ALIVE Waleed the pilot-which indicates regardless that we are talking about the same two people.

Another part of the puzzle solved, a new puzzle begins.

from here: /http/s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=11352