Fight Science! Did anyone watch this?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

A few criticisms of the show....

1. The show made it appear that the various "styles" presented were actually the cause of the striking power of the people doing the strikes. However this is nonsense. The one main thing responsible was the individual doing the striking, not their "style". Their body-weight and their physical strength both came into play. I doubt their "style" had anything to do with their punching power. Take a boxer weighing 130lbs and a muscular 230lb kungfu guy and I the kungfu guy will likely punch harder.
2. When you see people making as many as 6 strikes a second then those punches are basically fairy taps. When you punch hard you must pull your arm back to gain maximum momentum. The shorter distance you punch from the weaker the punch will be. That's why Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch was so amazing. These guys you see punching a target 6 times a second are doing it from a distance of a few inches and their punches are most definetly weak. That's why you never see pro-boxers doing those silly combinations.

Other than that the show could of done a better job explaining the physics behind combat.

Also in the previews they said they were going to "Debunk combat myths". What myths did they debunk? I didn't see them debunk any myths. Did they even mention things like "chi" or "combat ki" or other common mythologies in martial arts?

 

[Phrost]

I've yet to see a documentary style program on the Martial Arts that wasn't filled with woo and didn't cater to the myths and hype surrounding them. People just want to believe that dressing up in pajamas gives them superhuman powers.

 

[krelnius]

hm

well jmercer the reason I said he hit harder then the curren heavyweight champs like fedor and tim silva is because I've seen them both land dead on shots and not kill their opponent. The baseball bat to the head of the dummy was measured as enough to kill a human and they clearly said that glen levys punch showed numbers higher than that. Thus, ipso facto, if fedor hit like glen levy, he would have a good chance of killing his opponent. That just seems like logic to me.

yes the show did make it seem as if each style was linked to each of the abilities they stressed in each person but you have to admit that its likely the balance of glen levy is infact from his ninjitsu training. The kind of balance that makes other martial artists wobble and fall is not a passive trait last time I checked. Ok, some kid is 5 and can play the piano like a pro, i've seen that on TV b4 too, but thats fingers not your whole body. They also pointed out that glen was somehow taking advantage of every bone in his foot at the same time to maintain this balance? I dunno how thats possible either, but I highly doubt he was born with it.

dustin, the 130lb and 230lb guys hitting power is what is cuasing this argument, glen levy's little 150lb TOPS frame is supporting more power than the 200lb guy WITH A CROBAR. Also, I don't care who you are, the mentally ill hit harder with a baseball bat than they do bare handed.

No the show didnt debunk myths but what I am really trying to get at here is not the show but glen levy's punch. heck, after the first half of the show the rest was really awful in my opinion, and as for the brick breakers, I thought that part was pathetic. Throw a dead cat hard enough and it will break a brick, infact, I don't think a 200+lb guy could NOT break those bricks to be honest. I've seen brick breaking a thousand times and it never impresses me, ever. I think of it as a cheap physics trick to impress the simple people like laying on a bed of nails. 1000 nails gives enough surface area for ur weight so that none penetrate, big deal. You have your assistant break a block of ice on ur chest with a sledge hammer? So what, if he does it right you hardly feel it. But glen's punch was measured along side bigger faster guys and he hit harder. I wanna know how. Not cause I think its magic or mystical but so that I can try it.

Also, while the show didnt debunk myths it also never acknowledged them, it never even mentioned them charging inner energy or whatever aside from when the veteran martial artist guy that we all know from a gazillion action movies mentioned that most martial arts believe in the mystic ability to go beyond the norm into supernatural abilities, but they didnt have anyone try to fire an "energy ball" or shove something with their "ki" or use their shaolin iron shirt to block a knife, they realize that stuff is crap so they didnt do it is what I think.

and phrost, u being in mma should know damn well that nobody hits as hard as they kick unless they were born without the use of their legs or simply choose not to kick at all like tank abbot for instance. You find a guy that weighs less than you and punches harder than you kick, I honestly dare you to try if your at all proud of your legs then you shouldnt be able to. LOL I just realized even most fighting video games realize this! In tekken and streeth fighter I remember clearly, disregarding special attacks, basic punches do less damage than basic kicks. I find this to be undisputable proof haha.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

well jmercer the reason I said he hit harder then the curren heavyweight champs like fedor and tim silva is because I've seen them both land dead on shots and not kill their opponent. The baseball bat to the head of the dummy was measured as enough to kill a human and they clearly said that glen levys punch showed numbers higher than that. Thus, ipso facto, if fedor hit like glen levy, he would have a good chance of killing his opponent. That just seems like logic to me.

yes the show did make it seem as if each style was linked to each of the abilities they stressed in each person but you have to admit that its likely the balance of glen levy is infact from his ninjitsu training. The kind of balance that makes other martial artists wobble and fall is not a passive trait last time I checked. Ok, some kid is 5 and can play the piano like a pro, i've seen that on TV b4 too, but thats fingers not your whole body. They also pointed out that glen was somehow taking advantage of every bone in his foot at the same time to maintain this balance? I dunno how thats possible either, but I highly doubt he was born with it.

dustin, the 130lb and 230lb guys hitting power is what is cuasing this argument, glen levy's little 150lb TOPS frame is supporting more power than the 200lb guy WITH A CROBAR. Also, I don't care who you are, the mentally ill hit harder with a baseball bat than they do bare handed.

No the show didnt debunk myths but what I am really trying to get at here is not the show but glen levy's punch. heck, after the first half of the show the rest was really awful in my opinion, and as for the brick breakers, I thought that part was pathetic. Throw a dead cat hard enough and it will break a brick, infact, I don't think a 200+lb guy could NOT break those bricks to be honest. I've seen brick breaking a thousand times and it never impresses me, ever. I think of it as a cheap physics trick to impress the simple people like laying on a bed of nails. 1000 nails gives enough surface area for ur weight so that none penetrate, big deal. You have your assistant break a block of ice on ur chest with a sledge hammer? So what, if he does it right you hardly feel it. But glen's punch was measured along side bigger faster guys and he hit harder. I wanna know how. Not cause I think its magic or mystical but so that I can try it.

Also, while the show didnt debunk myths it also never acknowledged them, it never even mentioned them charging inner energy or whatever aside from when the veteran martial artist guy that we all know from a gazillion action movies mentioned that most martial arts believe in the mystic ability to go beyond the norm into supernatural abilities, but they didnt have anyone try to fire an "energy ball" or shove something with their "ki" or use their shaolin iron shirt to block a knife, they realize that stuff is crap so they didnt do it is what I think.

and phrost, u being in mma should know damn well that nobody hits as hard as they kick unless they were born without the use of their legs or simply choose not to kick at all like tank abbot for instance. You find a guy that weighs less than you and punches harder than you kick, I honestly dare you to try if your at all proud of your legs then you shouldnt be able to. LOL I just realized even most fighting video games realize this! In tekken and streeth fighter I remember clearly, disregarding special attacks, basic punches do less damage than basic kicks. I find this to be undisputable proof haha.

Huh?

 

[T'ai Chi]

It looks pretty good. But, people who base their understanding of what martial arts can and cannot do in real life based off of sports/entertainment matches might be disappointed.

 

[alfaniner]

Didn't they say that each participant had only "one" shot? I'd think that for an effective study more data points would be required.

 

[krelnius]

yea

while I think they all did only have 1 or 2 shots (they actually show 2 different strikes from glen levy if u watch closely) they also did things like show the muay thai low kick break a few boards and mentioned on whole banana tree kicking thing while doing so, I think after they gave them 1 shot for data I doubt that they would spend that much money on that room to let each have 1 shot and call it quits.

For the competition aspect of the show I am sure they sold it that way, but like I said, if you watch close you can see some were allowed more than 1 strike even during the power testing. Not to mention that they were allowed to strike multiple times atleast when you consider that they did punching, kicking, and speed attacks. I'd also bet that they went ahead and tested the other fighters balance as well as glen levys with their foot pad monitors but I doubt they showed it because of its lack of impressiveness. You will also notice sometimes they didnt even show the karata attempt at certain things but I highly doubt they told the guy to just sit back and watch. I am sure they didnt show every attempt on the actual TV show.

Infact I would be willing to bet that even the technicians themselves and even the weapon experts took a punch or kick at the dummy...I mean its made to withstand a car crash its not like its gonna hurt it haha.

 

[alfaniner]

...Infact I would be willing to bet that even the technicians themselves and even the weapon experts took a punch or kick at the dummy...I mean its made to withstand a car crash its not like its gonna hurt it haha.

Now that would have been fun to see. I mean, how could they resist?

 

[jmercer]

well jmercer the reason I said he hit harder then the curren heavyweight champs like fedor and tim silva is because I've seen them both land dead on shots and not kill their opponent.

And it's very likely that levy wouldn't kill someone with a single shot, either.

The baseball bat to the head of the dummy was measured as enough to kill a human and they clearly said that glen levys punch showed numbers higher than that. Thus, ipso facto, if fedor hit like glen levy, he would have a good chance of killing his opponent. That just seems like logic to me.

It's logical, but not correct. Force is not the only factor involved in a strike; you also have to consider the dimensions of the area delivering the strike, as well as the characteristics of the striking implement delivering the force. The amount of force delivered is one factor; the efficiency of delivery is another one that matters.

If you are struck by a baseball bat, the force will be transmitted (initially) by only a small part of the surface. Since the force is confined to a smaller area, it will deliver more force per square inch in the area it contacts. While I obviously can't measure it here, I'll bet that the contact area of a human fist or palm is quite a bit larger than the contact area of a baseball bat would be... and the larger the area of delivery, the more diluted the result would be. In example, a baseball bat can shatter a human skull with one hit; I've yet to see a punch capable of that kind of damage.

Additionally, a wooden bat is harder than the human fist... and more rigid than the human arm. This further increases the efficiency of the transfer of force to the target.

By contrast, the human hand is composed of soft tissue and bones, all tied together by ligaments and other connective tissue. It's a flexible instrument which is capable of absorbing force; in fact, it's impossible to not absorb force with it during a strike. (Athough the amount absorbed can be minimized.) There's a reason that many martial arts emphasize lining up the joints and bones during a strike; it's because that technique improves the use of the more rigid bone structure, making force delivery more efficient while reducing the delivery area involved.

However, no matter how you view it, you really can't compare the hit from a baseball bat to a strike from a hand. Weapons (such as a baseball bat) are considered "force multipliers" because they are much more effective at hurting the target than using one's bare hands.

This is why Ug the Caveman stopped hitting his enemies with his fists and picked up a rock... and then a bone and/or stick. If fists and feet were as effective as sticks and stones, we'd still be doing all our fighting with 'em.

 

[krelnius]

yes!

Yes! Thats exactly what I'm saying! A human hand CAN'T be compared to a baseball bat, atleast not to my knowledge. But they compared glen levy's hand to a bat being used by a fairly big guy and levy came out on top.

Sure a bat is harder and a hand probably isnt gonna break a skull, its probably gonna shatter its fingers and cry, true, but thats not what they were testing on the dummy. They tested the force it generated and said the FORCE of the bats hit was enough to kill a person. This was a bat to the head. Glen levy's blow was more powerful in their measurment of force and it was recorded as enough to stop the human heart given the place he chose to strike, not the head but what appeared to be a little above the solar plexus.

Regardless of how hard the bat is or how soft a hand is, he still generated more force according to dummies and insrtruments used to test car crashes. Given this, I'd say while its not gonna prove his hand can break a skull, a strike like this to the right point on the head or just to the stomach/chest could easily cause enough internal damage to kill you in a few minutes if not immediately. Yes, the muay thai knee was compared to a 35mph car crashes damage to the human body but a muay thai knee incorporates the entire body in the blow using both arms to clench the opponent while using one leg to help maintain power while thrusting the opposite legs knee into the opponent. Using your entire body in a powerful LEG BASED attack should always do more than a fist based attack to the same area in almost all cases.

There is a reason UFC has rules against knees and kicks to the head of an opponent that isnt standing (on his back/knees) its because their so dangerous. Punches on a fallen opponent? Completely fine. No worries there. I think this further stresses my point that nobody kicks like they punch and a 150lb guy should not be able to punch as hard as a 200lb guy kicks. It doesnt make any sense, the muscles in the legs are even larger.

Glen also had the best balance according to the show, do you guys think that any connections exists there? I mean I've noticed a huge difference in the power and speed of my hits/kicks when I get the techniques just right and part of that is balance but I don't think it could possibly change the damage so much that such a small guy could out punch a 200lb tkd champs spinning back kick. Any ideas?

 

[Bikewer]

Before making any assumptions regarding this fellow, I'd like to see a lot more trials under much more controlled conditions. The whole tenor of the show was, as has been discussed, more along the lines of "made for TV" rather than a serious examination of things.

Was there room for equipment error, jiggery-pokery, or cheating?

 

[jmercer]

Was there room for equipment error, jiggery-pokery, or cheating?

Of course.

As to whether there was any of that or not... I don't know. However, there's no doubt that the producers carefully provided a framework for results that would support the cherished beliefs of some MA fans and practitioners. It's all about the mystique.

 

[robinson]

I think the surprise was real when they found those dudes were really breaking all those concrete bricks.

And that it couldn't be done with a sledghammer.

 

[jmercer]

I think the surprise was real when they found those dudes were really breaking all those concrete bricks.

And that it couldn't be done with a sledghammer.

Which is an utterly suspicious anomaly, IMHO. Never met a concrete brick I couldn't smash with a sledge. Ever.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I might have an answer. I dont know any of this fight stuff, and I havent seen the show, but I do understand impact measurment technology to a degree.

When testing knee pads and shinguards for various impacts of things like bike frames and bike pedals, we saw some weirdness. MASSIVE frame impacts were showing up with less force than relatively minor axle strikes.

Turned out our feedback system averaged the total force on sensors which recieved an impact above a certain threshold, added them together then divided by the number of sensors that went over the threshold to give the impact rating.

The big round frames were activating a lot of sensors, but as thir rounded edges moved away, only really made force on the leading edge.

The axle hits however, activated only a few sensors and were ALL business

In reality the difference in force was like running through a thin branch and breaking it off for the axle, and running right into a tree trunk for the frame strike, but the tests showed quite different.

I wonder if something like that isnt going on here

 

[krelnius]

ok

First off, I did list the possibility of glen having cheated somehow. I also listed the posibility of him knowing something the others didnt. Maybe he talked a lot to the technicians and is smart enough to find a way to exploit their measuring tools by hitting a certain place or certain way. I did not say this wasnt possible, the part I don't think is possible is his fist hitting harder than the bat.

in response to robinson and jmercer if u watch the video again u can see that the guy using the sledge to show how "tough" the bricks are is the same guy that does the whole shoulder charge...as in, he is part of the act. Ofcourse he isnt gonna demolish them with the hammer it would make them look bad. I'm not just being paranoid here either cause if u watch he barely swings the sledge at all. I've chopped wood with an axe for years and he isnt even trying with that sledgehammer. I've also done deconstruction with my father and I know for a fact that I can put a sledge through a solid wall of concrete bricks no problem and I am only 150-160lbs.

Also, if u watch the video you can see that when they do the shoulder charge his shoulder doesnt even touch the last brick, its just a result of the first bricks breaking and the force of the first few breaks finishing the job like a domino effect. Same with the elbow strike, his elbow never touches the last brick at all, but it breaks. Magic? No, its simply an easily broken piece of rock. If you guys really don't think so, my dad has about 1000 cinder blocks, the ones that look like an 8 laying sideways, like an infinity sine with squared edges I guess. I forget their specific name, but I don't think he would care if I tried elbowing, punching, kicking or even taking a sledge to a few of them.

Also, if you have ever been in a wreck at all at any speed you know how violent and forceful it is. Glen's punched was said to have depressed the chest plate 2 inches, the same with the muay thai knee and was enough to be compared to a 35mph car crash...I guess in a 35mph car crash the chest gets compressed about 2 inches? My point is, I've wrecked a car when the breaks went out and I was only going about 10 and all I did was hit some dirt and junk, not a solid wall and it still hit me hard. If it takes a 35mph car crash into a solid wall to compress the chest 2 inches (i guess when the chest hits the wheel) then I'd go as far as to say this is also outside the realm of a punch from a 150lb guy.

Although, their are quotes from a person hit by te legend bruce lee's straight kick that said it was "like being hit by a car".

 

[jmercer]

Also, if you have ever been in a wreck at all at any speed you know how violent and forceful it is. Glen's punched was said to have depressed the chest plate 2 inches, the same with the muay thai knee and was enough to be compared to a 35mph car crash...I guess in a 35mph car crash the chest gets compressed about 2 inches? My point is, I've wrecked a car when the breaks went out and I was only going about 10 and all I did was hit some dirt and junk, not a solid wall and it still hit me hard. If it takes a 35mph car crash into a solid wall to compress the chest 2 inches (i guess when the chest hits the wheel) then I'd go as far as to say this is also outside the realm of a punch from a 150lb guy.

Although, their are quotes from a person hit by te legend bruce lee's straight kick that said it was "like being hit by a car".

You have to be careful with the car analogy; there's a big difference between what happens in a car and what happens with a punch. Frankly, their comparison sucks. In a car, your entire body mass is added to the force of the acceleration, and you're hitting something unyielding - even a break-away steering wheel provides resistance up to a point.

The comparision is more showmanship than accurate. A better comparison would have been a heavily padded log suspended in a sling, and how far it would have to have been drawn back to simulate the punch. I suspect that example would have been more accurate - and more disappointing.

 

[alfaniner]

I really hope Mythbusters takes a crack at this, but I think their budget wouldn't allow it.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

The reason the sledge hammer wasn't able to go through all of the bricks and the man was is because with the sledgehammer you can't continue to put pressure all of the way through the strike, All of the pressure is put into the initial blow and thats it. However the man was able to do the strike and then continue to put all of his bodyweight down onto the brocks to continue crushing them. Don't forget he was over 250lbs.

 

[robinson]

Which is an utterly suspicious anomaly, IMHO. Never met a concrete brick I couldn't smash with a sledge. Ever.

Did you watch the show? It was a huge ass stack of bricks, and he did bust about half of them with the sledge. The point was, people think it is a trick, and that the first block breaks the rest, a domino effect.

Clearly not so.

The reason the sledge hammer wasn't able to go through....

True. In fact, didn't they point that out in the slow motion of him smashing the bricks? That he kept following through almost to the end?

And that stuff about how the bones change with constant hitting stuff, that is a medical fact.