Grizzly Man

[ponderingturtle]

You're certainly free to believe him. And I'm free not to.

I don't believe him.

Why? I don't see any evidence that he would have agreed with Treadwell before or after death. Many people where not conned by him the park service for one.

There's also the consideration of whether or not, had Herzog made such a film before Treadwell's death, such a film would make it to your TV screen.

Mabey, what are you basing your oppinions on?

How did Herzog get it after Treadwell's death? Those films were Treadwell's private property, and his heirs owned it.

Yes and they sold others the rights to it

Do you think Treadwell's heirs wanted such film broadcast around the world?

They might well not have been in any legal postition to stop it even if they wanted to, depends on the contract between them and the producers(Herzog was approached by them after they had decided to make it)

If Treadwell was alive he would likely not have sold the footage to someone else but wanted to be much more involved in the editing process, as he seems to have had some ability and desire in that regard.

This situation has all the classic signs of propaganda before Treadwell's death, and profiteering afterwards.

Well I have not watched the previous film made about him and don't know how it compares(the one from when he was alive) and have not studdied the legalities involved. BUt I fail to see what exactly you are basing your beliefs on.

Also the dirrector was never involved in this until well after his death anyway, so I see no reason not to belive Herzog

 

[Huntster]

Hunster, do you wait and see what the opinions of the majority of the board are then simply regurgitate whatever you can in opposition to the larger population?

Nope.

Do you wait and see what the opinions of the majority of the board are then simply "yup, yup" to the larger population?

 

[Dragonrock]

Nope.

Do you wait and see what the opinions of the majority of the board are then simply "yup, yup" to the larger population?

No, I'm one of the few politically conservative posters on this board. I agree with most of the discussions that involve science and disagree with a large portion of the politics. On the other hand, you seem to simply disagree with whatever the greatest section posts regardless of whether it is politics, science, pop-culture, or the shape of the moon.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
You're certainly free to believe him. And I'm free not to.

I don't believe him.

Why? I don't see any evidence that he would have agreed with Treadwell before or after death. Many people where not conned by him the park service for one.

I've seen no evidence that Herzog was interested in Treadwell at all until Treadwell got his ass ate up in spectacular fashion.

Herzog clearly wasn't interested in letting folks know that Treadwell was playing his games in a National Park until after the Anchorage Daily News reported on the death.

For example, you didn't know that Treadwell was playing this game in a National Park, and you didn't know that the Park Superintendent disapproved (but allowed it anyway) until after Treadwell got killed, did you?

You were conned; just like me and most everybody else................

Quote:
There's also the consideration of whether or not, had Herzog made such a film before Treadwell's death, such a film would make it to your TV screen.

Mabey, what are you basing your oppinions on?

On the fact that it wasn't revealed that Treadwell was saving the bears from imaginary poachers until after his death by the Anchorage Daily News.

Quote:
This situation has all the classic signs of propaganda before Treadwell's death, and profiteering afterwards.

Well I have not watched the previous film made about him and don't know how it compares(the one from when he was alive) and have not studdied the legalities involved. BUt I fail to see what exactly you are basing your beliefs on.

How's this?:

Almost from the start the National Park Service officials worried about Tim's behavior. According to park service records, in 1998 Treadwell was issued a citation by park rangers for storing an ice chest filled with food in his tent. On another occasion he was ordered by park rangers to remove a prohibited portable generator.

A total of 6 park violations or complaints from 1994 to 2003 including guiding tourists without a license, camping in the same area longer than the 5 day limit, improper food storage, wildlife harassment, use of a portable generator, and misc. altercations with visitors and licensed guides. I will try and get this information organized and posted soon.

Treadwell also frustrated park rangers because he refused to carry bear spray. Deb Liggett, superintendent of Katmai National Park became sufficiently concerned about Treadwell that she met him for coffee in Anchorage several years prior to his death. "I told him that if we had any more violations from him we would petition the U.S. magistrate to ban him from the park,". (Liggett 2003)

Liggett applauded the fact that Treadwell was winning fans for the bears and was being more careful to warn people not to attempt what he did. But she and other park officials were afraid that "one swipe of a paw would undo all that and result in a frenzy of stories about fearsome, people-eating grizzlies". (Liggett 2003)

Even though Liggett knew there were no "poachers" like Treadwell claimed, knew that the guy was crazy, and was violating park rules on a regular basis, she didn't kick his ass out of the park.

She "applauded the fact that Treadwell was winning fans for the bears."

Frankly, I think park officials should be answering some questions. To even visit Brooks Camp (in the same park), you need to attend a bear interaction class in order to go fishing.

And Treadwell (with no academic or scientific qualifications whatsoever) was allowed to frolick like he did for 13 years at the other end of the park?

Why?

 

[Huntster]

....you seem to simply disagree with whatever the greatest section posts regardless of whether it is politics, science, pop-culture, or the shape of the moon.

If I feel strongly about something, that's when I post. I have not even glanced at the vast majority of the threads on this forum.

And I really don't take a poll before I post my opinion. I couldn't care less how many people disagree with me.

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

I found this movie very interesting because I am someone with ambitions to study large dangerous predators (in my case sharks) so I share his passion for animals and their protection.

I think the flaws of his approach that contributed to his death stem from the fact that he was not a bear biologist, but was merely an environmental activist. He wasn't careful enough to keep his distance from the animals and not have the animals get used to the company of people. When he gave the animals silly names he was at great risk of anthropomorphising the animals, which is a common way that people misunderstand animals and how animals think. When he encountered the fox he seemed to regard it more like a dog than as a wild animal, which is always a risky mistake.

I'm not saying you can only be a cheerleader for these things upon spending years in college and earning a PhD, only that you should spend some time doing your homework and consult an expert before doing something like this, otherwise you could put yourself at serious risk, especially with wild animals.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think the flaws in his approach were that he was a little off of plumb and had trouble with reality. He apparently thought bears were just people who looked different.

Then you had people who kept on enabling him, which reinforced his behavior, instead of cutting him off at the knees and ending his foolishness.

Then you have, as Huntster noted, the nearly unbelievable behavior of park officials towards the guy.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I've seen no evidence that Herzog was interested in Treadwell at all until Treadwell got his ass ate up in spectacular fashion.

I have seen no evidence that he was knew of treadwell before he was aproached to dirrect the film.

Herzog clearly wasn't interested in letting folks know that Treadwell was playing his games in a National Park until after the Anchorage Daily News reported on the death.

For example, you didn't know that Treadwell was playing this game in a National Park, and you didn't know that the Park Superintendent disapproved (but allowed it anyway) until after Treadwell got killed, did you?

You were conned; just like me and most everybody else................

Treadwell was pretty public about what he was doing, I am not sure how available the ealier discovery channel show about him is but it came out years before his death. So I have no ready way of saying how it was presented

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think the flaws in his approach were that he was a little off of plumb and had trouble with reality. He apparently thought bears were just people who looked different.

Then you had people who kept on enabling him, which reinforced his behavior, instead of cutting him off at the knees and ending his foolishness.

Then you have, as Huntster noted, the nearly unbelievable behavior of park officials towards the guy.

What actions should they have taken? He presence there was allowed it was more specific rules he was violateing about camping in one place for too long and such. BUt how do you enforce such things in the back woods?

 

[LTC8K6]

What actions should they have taken?

I think Huntster covered that.

 

[alfaniner]

I can't check YouTube at the moment, but is there a chance that the Treadwell appearance on Letterman is on there? I'd like to know how he came across there.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6
I think the flaws in his approach were that he was a little off of plumb and had trouble with reality. He apparently thought bears were just people who looked different.

Then you had people who kept on enabling him, which reinforced his behavior, instead of cutting him off at the knees and ending his foolishness.

Then you have, as Huntster noted, the nearly unbelievable behavior of park officials towards the guy.

What actions should they have taken?

Eject him from the park. He was breaking multiple rules, videotaping the evidence himself, and it was broadcasted on international TV.

He presence there was allowed it was more specific rules he was violateing about camping in one place for too long and such.

Why was he allowed to violate so many basic rules, yet allowed to continue his games?:

Like I wrote, other visitors to the park are required to attend behavior briefings:

All visitors to Brooks Camp are required to attend the Brooks Camp School of Bear Etiquette offered at the Visitor Center. This fifteen to twenty minute orientation provides visitors with basic information to help keep themselves safe and bears out of trouble.

But how do you enforce such things in the back woods?

Obviously, you know nothing about the National Park Service SWAT team? and the Pilgrim Family on yet another National Park in Alaska.

While Treadwell was playing his games (taped and broadcast to the world) the NPS was engaged in war with folks who have private inholdings in the parks; land that was privately owned before the parks existed. The Park Service tries to pressure them out, paying pennies on the dollar for the value of the properties. The Park Service tried to buy this land for about $150,000, and the Pilgrims paid nearly $400,000. The Park Superintendant got pissed off, and looked for a reason to screw them. Turns out Papa Pilgrim had more connections than the Superintendant knew about. Here are some of the players. It got really interesting....

Go ahead; Google it up. Keywords: pilgrim family anchorage daily news

The NPS can be very selective over what they want to prosecute and what they don't. They can get away with it, too, especially when so many people live in the dark and don't know it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The NPS can be very selective over what they want to prosecute and what they don't. They can get away with it, too, especially when so many people live in the dark and don't know it.

ANd just because one is so much easier than the other to find has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

How much should the park have spent to remove him and keep him out on an annual basis? Sending in enough people to catch him there would be difficult and expensive.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
The NPS can be very selective over what they want to prosecute and what they don't. They can get away with it, too, especially when so many people live in the dark and don't know it.

ANd just because one is so much easier than the other to find has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

How difficult would it be to find Treadwell when they knew he was in Kaflia Bay each and every year for multiple years?

How much should the park have spent to remove him and keep him out on an annual basis?

How much did they spend to issue him a citation for possession of a generator?

How much did they spend to issue him a citation for camping in the same spot in excess of 5 days?

How much did they spend to wage war on the Pilgrim family?

Sending in enough people to catch him there would be difficult and expensive.

What do you know about Kaflia Bay? What do you know of Katmai National Park?

For example, do you know how many fixed wing airplanes and helicopters the NPS has stationed in that park?

Is it unreasonable to spend money to eject Treadwell, yet justified to patrol looking for poachers that may or may not be there (and since there's no record of poachers ever being there)?