Loose Change - Part IV

[Regnad Kcin]

Submersible:

While a daunting task, you may just enjoy taking the time to peruse all the "Loose Change" threads (as well as the peripherals). Unless you are operating under confirmation bias, you will find all major "questions" regarding September 11th have been raised and adequately addressed. In short, what happened happened. No "inside job" conspiracy whatsoever.

The JREF is a place dedicated to critical thinking and its application to all manner of subjects. Please also browse around and enjoy the various subforums. And welcome.

 

[MarkyX]

Loose Change Recut is out..

Should I?

 

[mrfreeze]

Yes. Screw Loose Change is what kept a few of my friends from going down the woo path.

 

[Brainster]

In the recut version flight 77 has Rolls Royce engines and not Pratt&Whitney. It's a great thing Dylan is still learning something new every day. After 3 years of intensive 9/11 research he has now discovered one of the basic and easy-to-find facts about 9/11. Very good, Dylan. Nice job.

However Dylan seems unable to connect the dots. He still believes the "no plane hit the Pentagon" theory. Maybe I am asking too much.

He's pretty much locked in now; if he abandons any of the major points in LC2 he'll have to answer critics both in the CT crowd and the skeptic crowd. I did notice that he corrected some minor errors--he now pronounces McNamara as "MacNamara" and not "MickNamara".

 

[Submersible]

Flight 93 = Little or NO evidence remains after everything including the passenger's TEETH "vaporized" at the scene.

Lots of parroting of conspiracy web sites, very little original thinking, but this one right off the bat is totally false.

Perhaps you can tell us about all the first responders you have interviewed who can verify your claim that "little or NO" evidence remained?

Perhaps you haven't seen the pictures of the wreckage. Perhaps you have a typically cartoonish expectation of what should happen when a plane crashes into the ground at 500 mph. Who knows?

Maybe you should have read more of the thread.

Maybe you could scarfe up a few of those pictures that have body parts in them? The images results that I've seen show a group of men in slicker suits standing around scratching their watches and winding their assess.
Why would it be necessary for me to seek out and interview those men?
Wouldn't it be much more realistic for them or the coroner to report their findings to the government or the people?
Unfortunately for the moment I can't give you any of my cartoonish expectations of what supposedly happened when Flight 93 crashed, but I'm sure your familiar with the image containing ONE PUFF of smoke rising over a red barn in Shanksville ? ?
Beavis and Butthead wouldn't fall for this Mickey Mouse is a magic Muslim story as far as I can see.

And yes, it usually is wise to read more and talk less around a strange group of people.

Only if you fail to look hard enough. PLenty of body parts were recovered, as well as plane parts. Crashes tend not to leave much.

Not to be morbid, but do you have any photographs that show evidence of bodies recovered at or around the crash site of flight 93.

Like it or not, the entire world isn't being videotaped. The Pentagon preferred live security to camera. Why don't you ask the hundreds of witnesses.

"They" recovered videotape from the convience store and a hotel and the DMV... supposedly, according to the Loose Change video. And if none of those exist, how could the only footage they let us see NOT contain a clear image of a 757 as it approached the pentagon. What was it, about 3 months ago when they finally released ONE more clip from their video tapes and it had nothing on it that resembled a 757.
Like it or not, I demand more peace of mind for my family than what is being offered by the USG.

The major fire was above that floor. Read the NIST work.

According to the Port Authority tapes this fireman was on the floor where the plane entered the building. For some reason his voice and his request for help overrule the NIST work. Just like I'm a big fan of the images that have been offered from all angles of this spectrum compared to the massive amount of bovine excrement offered in writing by the so called "experts".

This is a matter handled without conspriacy mongering, and your account is pretty far off base.

It's been about 4 months since I listened to the tapes, I do know that the fire commissioner has not questioned or re-opened the investigation into the death of 346 fireman, even after the P.O. tapes proved that the repeater was not to blame for the high amount of deaths.

They took advantage of our weaknesses. Why is that hard for you to accept?

Because 'they' haven't touched us since, and our military has been tromping wide open through their women children and homeland not long after FEMA got finished recycling all of the incriminating evidence against them.

I'm going with what the Engineers around the world say happened, not some cream-dream of a bored film student.

Watch the video agaon but this time put it on mute.
The FDA can find scientist from around the world to say that aspartame is safe for human consumption, when it contains a healthy dose of methanol and formaldehyde. fact.

"We the people" are not on the same team as the USG anymore , that's all I'm trying to say.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Submersible:

Your post directly above contains many errors of reasoning. Do you know that?

 

[Mancman]

According to the Port Authority tapes this fireman was on the floor where the plane entered the building. For some reason his voice and his request for help overrule the NIST work. Just like I'm a big fan of the images that have been offered from all angles of this spectrum compared to the massive amount of bovine excrement offered in writing by the so called "experts".

No. He was on the 78th floor, where the wingtip struck. Take a look at the photo, there is no smoke coming from floor 78:

It was in fact the very lowest fire affected floor. If that had 'two isolated pockets of fire', then I imagine the floors above must have been a in really bad way.

 

[rwguinn]

"I fly a starship
Across the universe divine
and when I reach the other side...
...
and I'll be back again, and again, and again....."
Highwayman--Cash, Kristopherson, Nelson, Jennings
actually, they're not that sophisticated, it more like
"here we go 'round the mulberry bush..."

 

[twinstead]

"We the people" are not on the same team as the USG anymore , that's all I'm trying to say.

No, you're trying to say that it's okay to take a healthy dose of ideological bias, throw in some conjecture, half truths, rumor, and paranioa, mix well, and call it smoking gun proof of a conspiracy.

It's not

 

[Gravy]

I can't believe it.

Welcome to the forum, Submersible.

I don't have time to respond to each of your points. They've all been covered here before. I'll give you a start with the first, since I happen to have the document open on my desktop. Please review this evidence about flight 93 and let us know if it changes your understanding of that crash.

Thanks,
Gravy

At Shanksville, which was by far the smallest of the three crash scenes, over 1,100 people from 74 agencies and organizations were on the scene.

On 9/11 alone, these included:

• 8 Police Departments
• 7 EMS Services
• 8 Fire Departments
• 10 Emergency Management Agencies
• NTSB
• ATF
• FBI
• CISM
• Red Cross
• United Airlines

Some information from, and about, agencies that were on the scene.
http://www.epa.gov/region7/news_even...y/flight93.pdf
http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/emerg...es/091201a.htm
http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/sp/s..._ch3_grant.pdf
http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/qr/qr157/qr157.html
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...b/s_12940.html

Then there's the fact that most of the plane was recovered, was examined for signs of explosives by the FBI, and was turned over to United Airlines (except for the black boxes, which went to the NTSB).
http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...cene0925p2.asp
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/2...ite/index.html

Remains from every victim were recovered and positively identified. Wallace Miller of the Somerset County Coroner's Office was on his hands and knees for two weeks collecting remains.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...ry/3972571.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true

Two of the country's top forensics experts were on the scene: Paul Sledzik, who led the Flight 93 Disaster Mortuary Team, and Dr. Dennis C. Dirkmaat, who was Wallace Miller's chief scientific advisor.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...dzik0925p3.asp

The personal effects of most victims were recovered and returned to the families.
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/f...7flight93.html

The phone calls made from the plane:
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notable...s/P200055.html (includes seating assignments and seats where Airfone calls were made.)
http://www.s-t.com/daily/09-02/09-10-02/a02wn022.htm
Photo of Airfone from flight 93 crash scene
http://americanhistory.si.edu/militaryhistory/collection/object.asp?ID=28

The Air Traffic Control recordings and accounts.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc08.pdf
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...b/s_90223.html

The Cockpit Voice Recorder recording transcript
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200056T.pdf
Photo of CVR: http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200065.html

The Flight Data Recorder recording.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc04.pdf
Photo: http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200066.html

The NORAD recordings.
http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01

The numerous witnesses on the ground.
http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_eyewitness.html

The 300 volunteers who collected debris and remains in the final sweep three weeks after the crash.
http://www.epa.gov/region7/news_even...y/flight93.pdf

Photos of the crash scene, debris, and personal effects.
http://www.epa.gov/region7/news_even...y/flight93.pdf
http://pittsburgh.about.com/library/...light_93-5.htm
http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/
http://americanhistory.si.edu/septem...fferphoto.html http://911myths.com/html/flight_93_photos.html
http://www.heinz.org/files/h-spring05-SacredGround.pdf
http://www.september11news.com/Flight93.htm
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200068.html
P200069

Hijacker identification from the crash scene:
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00108.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00101.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00102.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00103-2.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00105-08.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/PA00109.html

Val McClatchey's photo (certified as authentic by the FBI's examination of her camera's memory card.)
http://www.shanksvillememorial.com/endofserenity.html

The Falcon 20 crew's report.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...rjetnat5p5.asp

The C-130 crew's report
http://www.youtube.com/watchv=FCVRkA...ch=Shanksville

*****

40 Lives, One Destiny.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...ainstoryp7.asp

*****

Some contact information for flight 93 crash scene responders.

Shanksville Volunteer Fire Co
Shanksville, PA 15560
(814) 267-4737
Terry Schaffer, Fire Chief
Rick King, Assistant Chief

Somerset County Coroner's Office
555 Tayman Avenue, Somerset, PA 15501
(814) 445-6900
Wallace Miller, Coroner

Somerset County Emergency Services
100 East Union Street, Somerset, PA 15501
(814) 445-1515

WESTMORELAND COUNTY
DEPARTMENT OF EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT
12 Court House Square
Greensburg, PA 15601
724-600-7300

Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency
Harrisburg, PA 17101
(717) 651-2001

Paul Sledzik, Curator Disaster Mortuary Team Main
Armed Forces Institute of Pathology National Museum of Health and Medicine
(He led flight 93 DMORT investigation)
202-782-2204 sledzik@email.afip.osd.mil

Disaster Mortuary Team Main office: 1-800-USA-NDMS, ext. 205
DMORT Region 3 office (includes Pennsylvania) 410-676-4600

Dr. Dennis C. Dirkmaat
Director, Applied Forensic Sciences Department
Mercyhurst College
501 E. 38th St.
Erie, PA 16546
dirkmaat@mercyhurst.edu
(814) 824-2105

 

[Submersible]

In short, what happened happened. No "inside job" conspiracy whatsoever.

What did ya'll come up with on tower 7 ?
It's foundation just got tired of holding the building up after it watched tower 1 & 2 fall out of the sky? Was it sad or depressed that it's next door neighbors dropped out of the sky like a sack of hammers?

Pardon me for not going back through this thread and seeing if anybody showed you guys the before and during images of tower 7 as the basement flew out from underneath it.

Bye bye tower 7, bye bye CIA.

Somebody here please explain when and how the CIA was 'born' and I'll shut up and go the other way., please !

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Wouldn't it be much more realistic for them or the coroner to report their findings to the government or the people?

he did, wally miller found over 1500 body parts, as claimed in his report

Not to be morbid, but do you have any photographs that show evidence of bodies recovered at or around the crash site of flight 93.

if you saw pictures would it change your mind or would you just call it fake?

"They" recovered videotape from the convience store and a hotel and the DMV... supposedly, according to the Loose Change video.

yes, they did get those tapes, but they likely dont show anything (as a convience store or hotel owner would you point your security cameras at a building a mile away or to your own property?

What was it, about 3 months ago when they finally released ONE more clip from their video tapes and it had nothing on it that resembled a 757.

it has nothing resembles anything not a 757 either

According to the Port Authority tapes this fireman was on the floor where the plane entered the building. For some reason his voice and his request for help overrule the NIST work. Just like I'm a big fan of the images that have been offered from all angles of this spectrum compared to the massive amount of bovine excrement offered in writing by the so called "experts".

you obviously didnt read the NIST report, the fires on floor 78 had burned out by then, the floors above had the worst fires (maybe thats why he stopped on floor 78 and didnt go any higher?)

It's been about 4 months since I listened to the tapes, I do know that the fire commissioner has not questioned or re-opened the investigation into the death of 346 fireman, even after the P.O. tapes proved that the repeater was not to blame for the high amount of deaths.

perhaps the heard the evacuation order but didnt HEED the evacuation order. it wouldnt surprise me in the least to learn the the firemen refused to evacuate a building that still had civilians in it

Because 'they' haven't touched us since

you say that as if we havent increased our awareness of threats, if i put my arm around your shoulder in a freindly manner then sucker-punch you in the gut, what are you going to think next time i put my arm on your shoulder?

 

[Gravy]

Maybe you could scarfe up a few of those pictures that have body parts in them? The images results that I've seen show a group of men in slicker suits standing around scratching their watches and winding their assess.

No, Submersible, they investigated the crime scene and collected every scrap of human remains they could find. Would you like to have had that job? It's not a good idea to compound ignorance with rudeness. Please do your homework.

 

[WildCat]

What did ya'll come up with on tower 7 ?
It's foundation just got tired of holding the building up after it watched tower 1 & 2 fall out of the sky? Was it sad or depressed that it's next door neighbors dropped out of the sky like a sack of hammers?

Pardon me for not going back through this thread and seeing if anybody showed you guys the before and during images of tower 7 as the basement flew out from underneath it.

Bye bye tower 7, bye bye CIA.

Somebody here please explain when and how the CIA was 'born' and I'll shut up and go the other way., please !

This would go much easier if you would just pick one topic at a time. You may find it hard to believe, but we've been through all of this many times over now. WTC7, pods, CGI, dancing Israelis, thermite, global hawks, missiles, etc etc etc.

Why don't you just throw your best piece of evidence at us? I guarantee you we've covered it before.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

What did ya'll come up with on tower 7 ?
It's foundation just got tired of holding the building up after it watched tower 1 & 2 fall out of the sky? Was it sad or depressed that it's next door neighbors dropped out of the sky like a sack of hammers?

it was hit by tons of falling debris

it had damage to the southwest corner

it had a huge hole (20 stories high about 1/4 of the way deep into the building) on the south side

it was visibly leaning to the south for hours before it collapsed

the "sack of hammers," as you put it, hit WTC7 squarely on the head

 

[T.A.M.]

Beyond the fact that the new recut version has lost about 80% of its impact via what he has had to remove or reword, I would say that some of the funniest crap in there, is when he shows the outlines of the Boeing 757 in two different pictures. Now I am assuming that when looking at the same section of the building, where the jet hit, that he would have the outline of the about to impact jet at the same height....but no. In one picture, he has the jet just above the ground, then in the very next photo, which he even nicely cross disolves for us, the outline of the jet is about 8 feet above ground. Of course, he has to do this, because that is the only way the "16 Foot Hole" theory, which yes boy sand girls he still tries to sell, will even seem plausible.

 

[Gravy]

Hey there - I have been following this forum since watching Loose Change for the first time. I have actually read about 50% of the posts regarding Loose Change. You sure have been busy bees

I have come to the realization that maybe Dylan, Jason and Korey are actually just salesmen. They know the value of a neat looking website, a spooky "documentary" and the power of belief. You can sell anything to a "truth seeker" - a true believer is like a sheep following the shepherd.

Did you know that they've sold more than 100.000 copies of their DVD? And who knows how many T-shirts, bumper stickers and posters?

Maybe they are just pulling our legs. No question they have effectfully cornered the market for conspiracty theories. They have all the buzz right now and a huge "herd" of gullible males between 15 and 25. Why not prey on them?

Welcome to the forum, Smother.

Do you have a reference for that 100,000 sold claim? I'd be shocked if that were true, considering that it's available for free.

 

[Brainster]

I can't believe it.
It's just hard to imagine that after they blew the basement out of WTC 1&2 by crashing jets into the 75-80th floors of the structure, that they still had enough pixie dust left to turn FEMA into the world's fastest I-BEAM recovery , shipping, and REcycling machine.

You do understand that the fireball which was so visible outside the building, was also inside the building, and that when the two planes (especially AA 11, which hit more directly) punctured the building's core that those fireballs traveled quickly down the elevator shafts?

I'm brand new here and only read the first and last pages of this thread, but it sounds like the majority of you believe that God/Allah was willing to give those 19 "martyrs" ... THAT much pixie dust.

Que?

Flight 93 = Little or NO evidence remains after everything including the passenger's TEETH "vaporized" at the scene.

False.

The Pentagon = Not one single image showing evidence of a 757 on approach, inside or outside of the building as it burned nor in the debris. This 757 supposedly "vaporized" also.

Another falsehood. (Graphic photo)

WTC 2 = A firechief was on the 78th floor calling for 2 engine companies and 2 hose lines on the floor where the plane crashed, the same place where the inferno raged that blew the basement out of the superstructure. You will hear him just like many other fireman report "explosions" between the time the towers were struck by the planes, and one group of them reported a series of explosions as the structure literally FELL down.

Explosions do not always indicate "explosives". In a fire, a soda can, or an aerosol container can and will become explosive. Anyway, if so many firemen are convinced that explosives brought down the buildings, why are so few of them involved with 9-11 Denial?

WTC 1 = Over 150 of the 346 FDNY men and women that died that day, did so because they could not hear the evacuation orders after the basement blew out of WTC 2, but the repeater worked because it picked up the radio traffic from tower 2. The FDNY fire commissioner has not asked any questions or shown any interest into the tapes released by the Port Authority that basically blew him and the mayor's signed "closed case" out of the water.

This is a valid poiint. Congratulations! You did better than Dylan Avery!

Regardless, if you want to blame the 8 or 9 biggest MIRACLES of our lifetime on the Muslim people that flew the planes on 9-11...
just remember that THEY are going to get the credit and recognition for having THAT MUCH POWER.

Where are the miracles? Methinks you are racist against Muslims, since you believe they could not have been capable of such amazing acts.

Unfortunately FEMA removed and destroyed all of the evidence before we could broadside the two most devout groups of people and inject our all powerful war MACHINE into their somewhat peaceful 1400yr. old Holy war, so it will be 50 or 60 years until we are able to teach our children what part of this 'history' to learn and believe.

FEMA did not remove and destroy all the evidence. And who are these "two most devout groups of people"?

Maybe you believe that Osama Bin Laden is the one who handed out all of that special pixie dust, and it doesn't matter how many women and children get in OUR way of hunting him down and "smoking him out of his hole".

Confusing two issues. You can argue against the Afghanistan war without engaging in 9-11 Denial (although you'll be pretty lonely).

speakng of a hole,
I just can't believe that the top portion of the towers that came crumbling down could turn three or four sub-level floors into DUST and blow all of that material out of the ground.

How do you know what happened to the three or four sub-level floors?

Since I can't post images yet, google this... (washington gndzero) ..
there is only one result if you want to SEE what I'm talking about.
The images suggest a massive web of conspiracies. FEMA removed everything from Ground Zero to protect the REAL terrorist by destroying all of the structural evidence.

Wow, a picture taken maybe six-nine months after 9-11? Are you aware that the rubble was taken to Freshkills and poured over by investigators?

 

[T.A.M.]

even better, is when he is describing a cordite explosion...once again he is describing the explosion at the pentagon as a "small silvery flash" while his own picture, for all to see, has this huge yellowy orange fireball on it...lol

 

[T.A.M.]

I've got a question. In the new LC, the quote Dylan uses about the hotel tapes for the Pentagon crash, states that, "The Hotel Employees sat and watched the film in horror several times before the FBI confiscated it."

Seems the EASIEST thing in the world would be to track down these employees and ask them what was on the tape...was it a plane, or a missile...how come a sleuth like D.A. and crowd havnt done that??