Christianity dilemma

[swifty]

Well it's not so much a dilemma...

Hey all, my name is David, im 16years old live in australia and have always been interested in religion, science and all which is in between.

I grew up in a household which imposed no religion on myself, we never went to church and my mother and father were of no particular faith. I was taught to do right by others an myself and as long as in life I did no harm, that was all that mattered.

My mother and father divorced when I was around 7years old, and when I was around 12 my father re-married to a christian woman and thus, became a born again christian.

I have the upmost respect for my father and admire him in many ways. He is the most rational person I know and I value his opinion more than anyone elses because of his non bias, reasonable and intellectual approach to all different topics.

My question is though, how could this man who always looks for a rational explanation for everything and based his opinion on facts could succumb to a faith in which that is all it is, having a faith in something.

When he first told me of this and started going to church I was very inquisitive and he would give me answers to what he asked. Since then though I decided to not question his beliefs so much yet I still marvel at how he can do this. Live his life in devotion to something which may not even exist.

But I supposed my main question is what should I personally do. The situation Im in is my father, who I love and look up to, everyday he wakes up and knows (at least in his mind) that in the life after this one both me and my sister will be in hell and he will be in heaven. He has to live life 'knowing' we are to be damned for eternity and he will not be with us in the afterlife.

Should I continue living life with my own morals and beliefs and let this man feel these things or should I convert, purely for him and all he has done for me?

This question goes through my brain continuously and I would be very interested to know what you all thought of this and if any of you are in the same situation and what you think.

Thank you and sorry for the long post and lifestory,

David.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Welcome.

Your stepmom's good in bed. Men'll believe anything.

As for what you should do, you've got to be your own person. Living for someone else is only going to make you unhappy, and in the long run you'll grow to resent this man you now love and admire.

 

[Pauliesonne]

Welcome.

Your stepmom's good in bed. Men'll believe anything.

As for what you should do, you've got to be your own person. Living for someone else is only going to make you unhappy, and in the long run you'll grow to resent this man you now love and admire.

Don't listen to him.

It's his time-of-the-month again.

 

[Apathia]

I'm not sure what your dad's level of faith is. if he feels getting you to walk the sawdust trail and mouth the words. "Jesus is my Lord," would suffice, he doesn't sound like the man you have described.
If he is the man you have discribed, he won't settle for a cosmetic act just to please him or get him off your back. he would be insulted by that.

There are rational people like him who embrace a life of faith for heart reasons. Ask him to share the reasons of his heart and be heart honest with him yourself.
This is far better place to be with him than in a phoney conversion.

However, if he's embraced relgion on the legalistic side, he won't give you his heart reasons but the usual load of conservative Christian head stuff, I hope that's not the case, or that you will be able to get him to be aware of his heart reasons as he shares them with you. If he just retreats to his head, no matter how illogical the things he says may be, he'll be stuck in them.

Most of all, give him the space to be himself and give yourself the space to be honest with him about who you are.

My dad was always after my mom about becoming a Christian. When he became terminnaly ill with cancer, she got baptised just for him.
She never changed. She was an apathetic agnostic for the rest of her life.
I don't think that's what he had in mind.

 

[wollery]

You haven't given us the one piece of information that is vital in answering your question. Has he, at any point, told you that he wants you to convert?

If he hasn't then there's no problem, and no need for you to do anything.

If he has, then you have a problem, because you have to choose between lying to someone you obviously care about deeply, or risking upsetting him and possibly damaging your relationship with him. In the long run neither option is appealing, since (as MdC pointed out) lying to him will eventually lead to you resenting him.

I think that in the end you have to stand by your own beliefs. Try not to be confrontational about it, and make it clear that you love him.

 

[swifty]

Yeah, thanks for your responses. I in no way am upset about this change. In fact, in the years since he has become christian he has been more involved with me then ever. He used to some and spend his weekends watching TV and drinking. He would swear occasionally and was not the best role model.

Since he converted though and found a new wife he has never acted this way at all. He quit smoking, he doesnt get angry and he has changed for the better. Now he spends his weekends envolved in church activities.

I suppose I have learnt that perhaps living a christian way of life can be a good thing, well it definitely was for him.

He uses some factual evidence to support his faith. Such as how in america I believe, a judge of some sort set out to prove that christianity was false and etc. He eventually came to the conclusion using all his techniques and judging skills that it was true or at least that some of it was and he is now christian. The 'proof' he used sounds like this.

In his life, he had never seen a case where people had died believing and testifying what they had seen. In this case, I think 100 or more people were killed because they said they saw jesus die and come back to life. If you were at home and saw a flying pig go past your window you would be amazed! Imagine if someone asked you if you had seen it and they said, if you say yes we are going to kill you. What do you do? Yes, you die or No and you live. I think its reasonably safe to say we'd all say we didnt see the pig, in the case of the people who said they saw jesus they said thet did see him and this were killed.

Very interesting food for thought, or at least it has been for me.

My dad started attending church because of his now wife, the church he attends is a very welcoming and even fun environment compared to most otheer churches. It is full of youth they sing songs with a live band and the surmons only go for about 30mins. Maybe this pleasant experience and a woman he loved were enough for him to truely start believing.

 

[RSLancastr]

In his life, he had never seen a case where people had died believing and testifying what they had seen. In this case, I think 100 or more people were killed because they said they saw jesus die and come back to life. If you were at home and saw a flying pig go past your window you would be amazed! Imagine if someone asked you if you had seen it and they said, if you say yes we are going to kill you. What do you do? Yes, you die or No and you live. I think its reasonably safe to say we'd all say we didnt see the pig, in the case of the people who said they saw jesus they said thet did see him and this were killed.

Sorry, I did not follow this at all.

David, I'm having trouble believing your story, or even that you are the age you say you are. Phrases like this:

It is full of youth they sing songs with a live band and the surmons only go for about 30mins. Maybe this pleasant experience and a woman he loved were enough for him to truely start believing.

"Full of youth" doesn't strike me as something a 16-year-old would say.

Anyway, assuming that your story is legit, I don't know what the problem is. As long as your dad and stepmom don't insist you convert, it's their issue, not yours.

Best of luck to you.

 

[kittynh]

well and if he is not pushing you to believe it's ok.

I don't know why it sometimes works, my own uncle married a Xian woman and stopped smoking and drinking. He became a new man, and has remained so. However, as well as being a Xian my aunt is also a strong good woman that saw in him the good that was in there. A lot of Xians aren't the Pat Robertson type. A lot of them are even, dare I say, nice.

I know a lot of nice Muslims (they have also died in great numbers for their faith, as well as Buddhists, and Hindus....). the Muslim family my daughter is basically considered a "daughter" in is great fun. Very loving, nurturing, it's comforting to have that structure and know you are accepted and part of a bigger group.

It's the same reason many kids join gangs. The need to belong, to be part of a bigger family, is very important to a lot of people.

And it sounds like these people are good role models for parenting for your dad. Maybe he didn'thave that before.

If he gives up the faith, he'll lose what makes him happy here on Earth.

I knew kids in gangs that knew the gang was wrong and bad, but could not turn on their friends, or jump into a lonely life without the gang.

I'm not saying the church is bad like gang!

If you can attend and enjoy the music, and maybe some other activities, that's ok. Heck, I go to the Buddhist temple with my friend because I like the monks and she makes them really good food. It's interesting and enjoyable and I'm not about to become a Buddhist.

Just remember, what the judge came up with applies to so many religions that Christianity has no monopoly on martyrs.

A good thing for you would be to study up on other religions also.

If your relationship with your dad is good, that's fine. He probably believes like many Xians that you kids will come around in time. Heck, Mormons even can "save"people after they are dead! Really! You can somehow convert your dead relatives. Which they find very comforting.

 

[swifty]

kittynh:
thanks for your response! I think I agree with that alot

RSLancastr:
Im not sure what you are trying to say. Why would I lie about being 16years old? I was thinking about not disclosing my age as I thought some may jump to preconceived ideas about a young persons' thoughts on such a deep topic such as religion.

 

[swifty]

Also RSLancastr, you said you didn't follow what I was saying.

My memory isnt very good so I could be making some mistakes but it goes something like this.

The Romans did not like Jesus yes? And when he allegedly died and came back to life the romans didnt like this. They asked people if they had seen this and if they said yes, they would kill them as they did not want these 'lies' to be spread. If they said "No, I didnt see him die and come back to life" they would let them live.

I then went on to try and give an example in modern times if you saw something rediculous and were told "Did you really see that? If you say yes we will kill you if you say no we will let you live." You would say no so you could live, but back then they said yes because even though they knew they would die for saying this they had so much faith in this man and his promises they did not care.

That was what I was trying to say.

 

[Tex]

The Romans did not like Jesus yes? And when he allegedly died and came back to life the romans didnt like this. They asked people if they had seen this and if they said yes, they would kill them as they did not want these 'lies' to be spread. If they said "No, I didnt see him die and come back to life" they would let them live.

I then went on to try and give an example in modern times if you saw something rediculous and were told "Did you really see that? If you say yes we will kill you if you say no we will let you live." You would say no so you could live, but back then they said yes because even though they knew they would die for saying this they had so much faith in this man and his promises they did not care.

I've heard this argument as well -- in fact it was my former pastor's "last line of defence", so to speak, back when I was still a Christian on the path to atheism. The big problem with it is that it assumes that events happened just as described by Christian traditions. Were eyewitnesses really persecuted shortly after the alleged resurrection? And given a chance to recant their story and be spared? Or did the Romans not really care about Christianity until it had gained a bit of power? Do we have any names of these supposedly persecuted eyewitnesses? Even if Peter and Paul were really executed by Nero, did they really have a chance to be spared if they renounced their previous statements? There is also little evidence that full-fledged Roman persecution of the Christians (lions, and all that) began until long after any supposed eyewitnesses were long dead.

 

[Dr Adequate]

In this case, I think 100 or more people were killed because they said they saw jesus die and come back to life.

How do we know this?

The Romans did not like Jesus yes? And when he allegedly died and came back to life the romans didnt like this. They asked people if they had seen this and if they said yes, they would kill them as they did not want these 'lies' to be spread. If they said "No, I didnt see him die and come back to life" they would let them live.

Again, your post suggests that this is a matter of historical record. Where?

I am familiar with the earliest sources about Christianity. I find records of people being put to death for being Christians, but no-one put to death specifically for affirming that they had seen the risen Christ. I believe I'm right in saying that the earliest source is Tacitus, Annals XV (written in 109 AD) :

Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Indeed, the fact that Christians were generally persecuted makes the story you tell most implausible :

They asked people if they had seen this and if they said yes, they would kill them as they did not want these 'lies' to be spread. If they said "No, I didnt see him die and come back to life" they would let them live.

When Romans persecuted Christians, they persecuted Christians. They wouldn't have let people off for saying "Well, I believe he rose, but I didn't see it myself."

The actual test applied, if I remember rightly, was to ask them to burn a stick of incense to a statue of the Roman Emperor in his aspect as a god. I may have got that out of a historical novel, though --- I shall see if I can look it up in some more authoritative source.

 

[RSLancastr]

Im not sure what you are trying to say. Why would I lie about being 16years old?

Lots of people lie about themsleves on the internet every day, Swifty. And sometimes, on internet forums such as this, they lie and set up situations so that they (under another screen name) can then respond to their post, and to others' responses to it. This is known as using a sock puppet.

For instance, I can imagine a fundamentalist coming here posing as a 16-year-old whose father had recently become a Christian, in hopes of all the mean old skeptics telling the 16 year old their heathen advice, after which the fundamentalist could sign on as him or herself, and post a diatribe about "how dare you all give this advice to a minor."

There were things about your post which had that flavor to them. For instance the statement of the church being "full of youth." In my expereince, young people don't generally refer to their generation as "youth."

It's like in the "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" article. The letter asking whether or not there was a santa was supposedly written by a little girl, but it referred to her friends (if memory serves) as "my little friends." An adult might ask a child about their "little friends," but it seems unlikely that a child would use the phrase.

If you are who and what you say, welcome to the board.

Thanks for clarifying the judge's reasoning. I would comment on it, but see that it has already been answered more than Adequately.

There is a similar argument I have heard used by Christians, saying that all of the apostles (except one - John?) died horrible deaths because of their faith, yet none of them recanted that faith rather than die. Even assuming that the horrible deaths part is true, we obviously cannot know whether they recanted or not, nor whether doing so was offered to them as an alternative to their torture and/or execution.

At least, not to my knowledge. But I am not a biblical scholar by any means.

 

[swifty]

Oh ok I understand a bit more now. I do know lots of people use fake identitys on the internet, although I can assure you im not one of these people. I have nothing to gain apart from the users of this forums comments, that's all I wanted. I referred to it as a church full of youth because opposed to other churches ive been to, this one is just a small congregation and most are very young. Its a modern type church as I said with the singing of upbeat songs instead of the more traditional hyms.

Hopefully this clarifys why I used the phrase, I could have refereed to it as "a church where alot of young people go" but trying to use better grammar I decided upon the other phrase of full of youth to maybe sound a bit more intelligent so that you all would maybe respect more. Well at least more than someone who came on typing like "yer n like dis church is full of yung ppl and they r really wit it". Seems like that would have been foolish

 

[thaiboxerken]

Should you convert to Christianity? That's as silly of a question as "Should I have half my brain sucked out through my ear?"

 

[stamenflicker]

If you see something beneficial about Christianity, by all means convert. But don't do it out of obligation or guilt.

The questions about whether or not these things are real, hardly should be questions at all. Is "true love" real? I doubt seriously anyone could prove there was such a thing and if they did, they'd never get two groups to agree on what makes love true.

But whether or not "true love" is ever proved, doesn't alter the fact that it is an idea worth holding. Holding fast to an idea is certainly not the same thing as believing a lie.


ETA: I remembered this quote from Secondhand Lions:

Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in

Pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[Dr Adequate]

If you see something beneficial about Christianity, by all means convert. But don't do it out of obligation or guilt.

Hey, Flick!

There's a couple of questions I'm been meaning to ask you.

First, is it the little angel that sits on his left shoulder and the little devil on his right shoulder, or vice versa?

The second thing I can't remember --- dammit, which one am I?

 

[Soapy Sam]

My question is though, how could this man who always looks for a rational explanation for everything and based his opinion on facts could succumb to a faith in which that is all it is, having a faith in something.

Bunch of possible reasons.(There may be dozens. Did you ask him?).
An actual conversion experience. Road to Damascus stuff.
Age and awareness of mortality. Some folk do get more religious as they come to accept the inevitability of their death.
Pleasing the woman. Marquis de Carabas gave a tongue in cheek answer, but men will go a long way to please the woman they are in love with.
There may be a social element. He may be making new friends as well through your stepmother's church and simply be embracing a new enthusiasm , as people often do with a new interest.

When he first told me of this and started going to church I was very inquisitive and he would give me answers to what he asked. (Rather than "question" his belief, you might ask questions about it. ) Since then though I decided to not question his beliefs so much yet I still marvel at how he can do this. Live his life in devotion to something which may not even exist.Well, you're preaching to the choir here, though there are a number of self-professed Christians here. I think you are wise not to push too hard on this. You can ask for explanations though.

But I supposed my main question is what should I personally do. The situation Im in is my father, who I love and look up to, everyday he wakes up and knows (at least in his mind) that in the life after this one both me and my sister will be in hell and he will be in heaven. He has to live life 'knowing' we are to be damned for eternity and he will not be with us in the afterlife.
That's your father's problem, David, not yours. It does not seem he's forcing his opinions on you. No reason for you to adopt them.

Should I continue living life with my own morals and beliefs and let this man feel these things or should I convert, purely for him and all he has done for me? You know you can't honestly do that. It would be hypocrisy. Be your own man. Give your father the same consideration.

This question goes through my brain continuously and I would be very interested to know what you all thought of this and if any of you are in the same situation and what you think.
With apologies if this seems patronising:- You have not been (let's say) thirty, but your father has. So have I. We have also been sixteen. At sixteen, I'd expect you to take this very seriously , both intellectually and emotionally. At twenty, it may bother you less. It's good that at sixteen you still like and admire your father. Many teenagers do not, for reasons that range from teenage hormonal turmoil to parental silliness with all possible variations between.

Thank you and sorry for the long post and lifestory,

David.

Be as honest with your folks as you can be without causing bad feeling . Remember your stepmother will have some insecurity in her position, even after this time - especially with relation to a sixteen year old sceptic stepson- and she expects your dad to support her (as do I and, as I hope you do too). Don't let this issue drive a wedge between you and your father and stepmother.

Keep in mind that if your old man is as sane as his son seems to be, he can't be completely nuts. Like Rob Lancaster, I found your Opening Post (OP) suspiciously adult, but peoples' styles differ. Being sixteen is difficult enough without people telling you you are notsixteen.

My advice is don't worry too much about this. People differ widely. Vive la difference.

 

[stamenflicker]

Hey, Flick!

To quote the esteemed Bugs Bunny... "What's up Doc???"

First, is it the little angel that sits on his left shoulder and the little devil on his right shoulder, or vice versa?

That would be for him to decide, nes pas?

The second thing I can't remember --- dammit, which one am I?

Fooze-ball is of the debil. So we all know now which one you are.

 

[The Atheist]

David, I'm having trouble believing your story, or even that you are the age you say you are

Anyone else notice how swifty's language has devolved into more teen-like usage since his[?] age was first questioned?

I felt from the first post that this was going to be one of those, "there was just so much evidence of god that I had to become a believer" posts and I'm surer now.

Christian Troll.