Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[ynot]

Maybe so.

If we agree that we use the same language, I don’t see that there is any “maybe”

From a dictionary site . . .

v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v. intr.
To consider something; deliberate.
To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
Obsolete. To fight or quarrel.

v. tr.
To deliberate on; consider.
To dispute or argue about.
To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally.
Obsolete. To fight or argue for or over.

n.
A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.
Obsolete. Conflict; strife.

That would be your belief.

Call it whatever you like but the point I’m making is it doesn’t deny your belief, it merely refutes that your belief is proven.

Reading many of the bumper stickers, some of which I find hilarious, it is obvious that most people don't believe in a God, or for that matter a Creator.

What SezMe sez.

You weren't the person who citied her spelling mistakes as an example either, so I can look upon your posts with a proper attitude.

If I ever point out an error in spelling or grammar in someone else’s post, I hope that I only do so in an effort to make the communication clearer. Clarity is important in communication.

As soon as someone disrespects a fellow member, for whatever skills/talents they lack, I ignore their posts.

If this is so I’m surprised that there are any posts that you don’t ignore.

 

[Azure]

I doubt reading bumper stickers is a good way to gather data on the demographics of a belief in god.

The American Religious Indentification Survey is the longest ongoing survey of religious attitudes in America. It shows that roughly 3% of the population self-identifies as an atheist. It also shows that about 14% are non-religious.

Now this survey does not include Canada so, unless you Canucks are A LOT different that us Yanks, your "obvious" conclusion is wrong. Badly wrong.

Yes, here in Canada most people won't be as religious as the US.

I guess some people get kicks out of insulting other people's beliefs.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Thanks for proving my point. The belief IS centered around faith. Is there anything wrong with that.

I've never said that there was anything wrong with that. If that makes someone happy then they're welcome to it. I won't challenge someone who says "I believe because it comforts me. I offer no proof, it is a matter of faith." But when someone says "I worship the one true God and you should too based on my faith." then my inclination is to ask for proof. What evidence can he/she show to support his/her claims over any other competing philosophy? "I believe" is not evidence. As this is a forum of debate it is perfectly acceptable to challenge someone to provide an evidenciary argument. This type of challenge is not the same as an attack.

What should it tell me? That you get a kick out of someone that can't cite physical evidence for something you don't believe exists?

No, it should tell you that Kathy's arguments are not very strong, that they don't stand up to critical inquiry very well and that it's easy to poke holes in them because of the lack of hard evidence offered. I think I better understand your assessment of a challenge to Kathy's claims as being an aggressive attack in light of your age. I've only just realized that you are 17. I don't mean that as a put down. Hell, I was 17 once. But in a couple of decades I'm sure you'll realize what I mean. You still have a lot of maturing and discovering to do. The fact that at your young age you are participating a debate forum at all would seem to bode well for your future. But please understand that challenging claims is a major part of this forum and is not equivalent to a personal attack.

Steven

 

[SezMe]

I guess some people get kicks out of insulting other people's beliefs.

If they do, shame on them.

I sincerely hope you did not mean to include me in this sentence. If so, let me state my position.

I do NOT get kicks out of insulting other people, especially their beliefs. Period.

That said, should someone try to justify their illogical beliefs through the use of religion, then calling them on the carpet is justified. If someone uses religion to hide behind a critical analysis of their beliefs, then I have no qualms about trying to puncture their shield.

But if someone says they have a religious belief based on faith, then my own personal ethical system says that that is just fine and their belief is absolutely none of my business.

Hope this helps.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Yeah, I kinda like Kathy too. What I like about her is that she appears to be genuine and sincere in her beliefs and is totally up-front about them. Regardless of how deluded I may think she is, I respect her for that.

Why thankyou ynot, I think? I am sincere in my beliefs and am still growing in my Christian understanding and knowlege. I don't like to argue with people about matters of the heart and faith but I do find they are challenged on a forum like JREF. Logic and reason aren't the only things that constitute a persons life, are they?

I sometimes think being over analitical can be a hinderance to some people perhaps being open to trying to live their lives by faith. Faith is the evidence of things believed in but not yet seen. God has made people promises if they care to take it on faith!

And I'm sorry you think I am perhaps in some way deluded. I can honestly tell you that I'm a true believer in Christ because He revealed himself to me, and this is something I can only hope to be possible for others.

 

[ynot]

Why thankyou ynot.

You're very welcome.

I think? I am sincere in my beliefs and am still growing in my Christian understanding and knowlege. I don't like to argue with people about matters of the heart and faith but I do find they are challenged on a forum like JREF.

You shouldn't expect it to be any other way in this forum.

Logic and reason aren't the only things that constitute a persons life, are they?

Certainly not. There’s fantasy and dreams for instance. Trouble is some people don’t know the difference between fantasy and dreams, and logic and reality.

I sometimes think being over analitical can be a hinderance to some people perhaps being open to trying to live their lives by faith.

Being even slightly analytical can be a hindrance to some people perhaps being open to trying to live their lives by faith.

Faith is the evidence of things believed in but not yet see.

Sorry, can’t agree. “Faith is the desire of things believed in but not yet seen.” Faith has nothing to do with evidence.

And I'm sorry you think I am perhaps in some way deluded. I can honestly tell you that I'm a true believer in Christ because He revealed himself to me, and this is something I can only hope to be possible for others.

I knew a guy that revealed himself to women. He’s in jail now.

 

[Paulhoff]

Belief equals Faith. The problem I have with bumper stickers is I don’t need someone’s religion in my face. I haven’t put mine in their face and I haven’t asked about their faith, what are they trying to do, kiss their gods butt.

Lately “christian understanding and knowledge” do not seem to be working very well anymore.

“Understanding”, just put on a christian religious show and one can hear the hate that goes toward some group that does not agree with them.

“Knowledge”, please listen again to the christian religious show as they twist scientific facts to prove their misguided thoughts on the universe and to make their religion work.

kurious_kathy

“god has made people promises if they care to take it on faith!”

Sorry there is no god, and the promises that you see, happens no more then random events do. I can’t get by all the killing of women and children in your bible’s that your so-called god ordered, there is never a good reason to kill the innocent, and please don’t give me that the old tired “god works in mysterious ways” saying, that is a poor copout for a so-called all powerful and all loving god.

Paul

 

[Azure]

If they do, shame on them.

I sincerely hope you did not mean to include me in this sentence. If so, let me state my position.

I do NOT get kicks out of insulting other people, especially their beliefs. Period.

That said, should someone try to justify their illogical beliefs through the use of religion, then calling them on the carpet is justified. If someone uses religion to hide behind a critical analysis of their beliefs, then I have no qualms about trying to puncture their shield.

But if someone says they have a religious belief based on faith, then my own personal ethical system says that that is just fine and their belief is absolutely none of my business.

Hope this helps.

No, you are not included in that group.

But read through this thread; many times Kathy or someone else has quoted the Bible for justify her belief, only to have it thrown back into her face and not being proper evidence.

It is practically impossible to argue the Christian religion with someone who demands evidence.

 

[Foster Zygote]

But read through this thread; many times Kathy or someone else has quoted the Bible to justify her belief, only to have it thrown back into her face as not being proper evidence.

In the context in which Kathy and others have used the Bible it is not proper evidence.

It is practically impossible to argue the Christian religion with someone who demands evidence.

I couldn't have put it much better myself.

Steven

 

[RandFan]

It is practically impossible to argue the Christian religion with someone who demands evidence.

As well it should be.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

No, you are not included in that group.

But read through this thread; many times Kathy or someone else has quoted the Bible for justify her belief, only to have it thrown back into her face and not being proper evidence.

It is practically impossible to argue the Christian religion with someone who demands evidence.

I think that may be, in part, because (personal experience here, not saying this is always true) people to try to "justify" their beliefs either tread into territory where "belief" does not reign supreme or assign qualitative judgements on those that do not share their beliefs.

If someone says to me, "I believe in the Christian God." and I, in return, ask, "Why?" and they answer with, "Because" (or something that would paraphrase down to this) (feism is a sense) I'm fine with it. But, if I ask "Why?" and they start throwing out all sorts of attempts at justifying that lie outside of their personal, decision making processes, as an individual; well, then we have someone who I have to question their true reasons for believing what they do.

 

[Dr Adequate]

But read through this thread; many times Kathy or someone else has quoted the Bible for justify her belief, only to have it thrown back into her face and not being proper evidence.

Well yes. But especially because the truth of the Bible is basically what we're asking for evidence for. If someone says "The Gospels are true", and when asked for evidence, says "It says so in the Gospels!" ... that's not getting us very far, is it? It's no different from "The Koran is true, it says so in the Koran", or "The Bhagavad Gita is inspired by God, God says so in the Bhagavad Gita." Or, "Dr Adequate is always right, and I know this because Dr Adequate, who is inerrant, told me this himself."

It is practically impossible to argue the Christian religion with someone who demands evidence.

Yes. This is something it has in common with beliefs which are untrue.

We use the idea of "faith" daily in our lives ...

No, people go on the basis of what they know empirically, 99% of the time. The rest of the time, when they want, for whatever reason, to believe something that isn't true ... that's when faith comes in handy.

 

[DJ Hexadecibel]

So do theoretical physicists. What's your point? Does the religion with the most followers get to keep the Stanley Cup of Absolute Truth?
Steven

Dood, they MADE one? Damn, the Canadians think of everything! Now, do they make little copies of it for ALL the followers, or just the team captain?

 

[Freethinker]

Kinda funny how some people like to claim God exists, and post links from the Bible and such, while others claim God doesn't exist, and post links from books/resouces that claim God doesn't exist.

I guess the moral highground of being neutral in such debates doesn't exist anymore.

If you would look around, you would see many cases of atheists here posting quotes from the bible to prove their points. Without spending much time looking, I doubt you would find 1/100 as many cites from all other literature combined. I think your assertation is wrong.

 

[Ossai]

kurious_kathy

I like Joshua had to come the point where I not only chose to believe in Christ, but I'll challenge others to believe in Him too. "Choose this day whom you will serve!"

Your pseudo-spiritual masturbation is becoming obscene.

Jesus is the Messiah and He is alive!!

Really, tell him to come visit. I work within three miles of four hospitals. Let’s go visit a children’s cancer ward.

Yep. But I get curious about other stuff too. I just try hard to keep in it perspective with what God's word tells us is truth.

God lies, it says so in the bible.


Azure

Biblical evidence, which, considering that he belief is centered around faith, is the only sort of evidence that she COULD provide.

But which version of the bible and why that particular one? As far as evidence goes, kurious kattle has quoted a few bible verses but offered no evidence.

Thanks for proving my point. The belief IS centered around faith. Is there anything wrong with that.

Yes. Faith is meaningless, offers false hope, and is a great tool of repression.
To quote R. A. Heinlein:
“What are the facts? Again and again and again — what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what "the stars foretell," avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable "verdict of history" — what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!”

We use the idea of "faith" daily in our lives - seems natural to me that someone could have a religious belief based on faith.

You may. No one I know of and interact with uses ‘faith’ to make decisions. Go ask a bank if they would make a loan based on ‘faith’ or will they run a credit check, etc?


Ossai

 

[Foster Zygote]

Dood, they MADE one? Damn, the Canadians think of everything! Now, do they make little copies of it for ALL the followers, or just the team captain?

The team captain gets to keep it. The rest of the faithful can see an imprint of it on a shroud for a nominal fee, err, I mean, offering.

Steven

 

[DJ Hexadecibel]

The team captain gets to keep it. The rest of the faithful can see an imprint of it on a shroud for a nominal fee, err, I mean, offering.

Steven

Really? Damn, what a rip! As if charg...asking for a donation for sermons on CD weren't enough. And Peter bloody Popoff is STILL shilling! Now you can get "Miracle Water" from him in Canada! Unbelieveable. It's funny how the "samples" come in the same kind of twist-off bladders that flavoured lubricant comes in as well. Coincidence? Perhaps. . .

 

[RandFan]

Kinda funny how some people like to claim God exists, and post links from the Bible and such, while others claim God doesn't exist, and post links from books/resouces that claim God doesn't exist.

I guess the moral highground of being neutral in such debates doesn't exist anymore.

"Moral high-ground"? What the hell is that?

Let's see, Mom's got cancer and is considering psychic surgery over traditional medicine? My family wants her to get traditional medicine. I'm taking the moral high-ground and staying neutral.

My friend can't decide whether he should give money to a Nigerian in return for millions. He wants my advice, "sorry I told him, I'm taking the moral high-ground and staying neutral".

Oh, one more thing, links don't equate to objective evidence. As Randi says, you can have an open mind but it shouldn't be so open your brains fall out.

If you want to believe in God that is fine. Just understand that is faith and not supported by evidence. I can't judge your faith. I can only use reason to find the truth because I don't have faith that God is real. Just don't expect me to accept your faith.

 

[Roadtoad]

Faith is a fine thing. But I'd rather have reality.

 

[Azure]

Moral high-ground"? What the hell is that?

I get questioned on that all the time. Basically, since me and everyone else who believes in a God, knows that we cannot provide physical evidence to prove that our God exists, we usually take the moral high ground and stay neutral in religious debates.

Let's see, Mom's got cancer and is considering psychic surgery over traditional medicine? My family wants her to get traditional medicine. I'm taking the moral high-ground and staying neutral.

Obviously with something that personal, I would hope you don't stay neutral.

If you want to believe in God that is fine. Just understand that is faith and not supported by evidence. I can't judge your faith. I can only use reason to find the truth because I don't have faith that God is real. Just don't expect me to accept your faith.

I don't expect it at all.

And niether will I try to prove to you that my faith is real, because I can't.