Hezbollah: take that

[geni]

And Lebanon itself, for geni, is now "mostly the French's fault" (still, nobody who blames the French for something could be all bad...).

The French created Lebanon. Who else are you going to blame for the demographic issues?

In other words, it's the usual attempt at "understanding the conflict" which ends up placing the the blame (a.k.a. the "root cause") for Hizbullah's terrorism on israel, France, shape-shifting aliens, Zeus the thunderer, or anybody else--as long as it isn't, er, Hizbullah itself. I mean, to think that Hizbullah is responsible for Hizbullah's actions is way too simplistic, isn't it?

Israel? Not really. Israel just happens to be on the edge of a ~1400 year conflict zone.

 

[geni]

Anyway, whatever makes you think Hizbullah cares about Lebanon being "occupied" in the first place, Geni? They enthusiastically support Syria taking over the place, setting up a puppet government; they resist violently any attempt to form a democratic government which will not be a Syrain puppet, or which--heaven forbid--actually demand something from them.

Sothern lebanon probably is syrian (it certianly isn't the same country as nothern lebanon). Of course Hezbollah don't like the goverment. It's full of Maronites.

What more proof do you want, exactly, that that is their real goal?

Goal singular? Their goal is the islamic repulic of lebanon. Israel is secondary.

You're like a defense lawyer whose client just stood up and court and shouted, "Yes! I killed the bastard! That's what I lived for! I'd do it again!", and he mumbles "But, your honor, you have to remember the late victim had occupied my client's home five years ago, and..."

Well Hezbollah didn't exist pre the ocupation.

 

[geni]

Rather than worry about long term damage to Lebanon's infrastructure, Israel needs to continue and even to tighten its blockade/siege of Lebanon. Eventually, Hezbollah will run out of weapons.

The problem is that massive land boarder with Syria. Syria will support Hezbollah. Hezbollah and those who support Hezbollah would not be the ones suffering under such condtions

More likely, after its citizens go long enough without food and electricity, the Lebanese government and the people will be pressured into forcing the guerillas to give up or face counterattacks from Lebanese citizens.

Hezbollah are probably the single strongest force in the country. It isn't it's supporters who are going to be starving.

Support for the guerillas will wane as hunger increases. When the Israelis capture the head guerillas, they will hang high, on television, for the whole world to see.

Israel doesn't have the death penitalty (with I think an exception for nazi war criminals). It is one of it's better points.

After it has secured the return of its captured soldiers and ensured that Hezbollah is disarmed, then Israel should send in a brigade or two of ground troops to occupy southern Lebanon for a very long time.

And Hezbollah would rearm. Hezbollah are good at what they do. This isn't the PLO.

The US should strengthen its support for Israel and its continued existence, now and forever, and to condemn the Arab world's attempts to rid the world of Jews forever. All non-Muslims are infidels, of course, so we're next on their list to eliminate from the planet. It's just that they hate Jews more than gentiles, so they have their priorities.

The Maronites are probably ahead of you but historicaly they have been difficult to kill off. Their homeland is also fairly defensible (of course there is a reason for this.

The US and Israel should withdraw from the UN immediately. The UN has failed miserably at the task for which it was originally formed immediately after WWII -- to prevent armed conflict around the world. It has failed for 60 years, consistently. It is irrelevant and provides no benefit to either the US or Israel, and in fact has recently been nothing but a thorn in our sides. Time to give the UN the finger and to stop taking its phone calls.

The UN does other stuff. The WHO is a UN agency

 

[Skeptic]

Goal singular? Their goal is the islamic repulic of lebanon. Israel is secondary.

First, says who, geni? Certainly not Hizbullah itself, or Nasrallah, or their television, or anything they say: they make it quite clear that the establishment of an islamic republic of Lebanon is seen only as a step towards israel's destruction. If anything, the "Islamic republic of Lebanon" goal is secondary to the destruction of israel.

Second, does it matter which goal is "primary" and which is "Secondary"? Hitler's goal was to create a heaven-on-earth for Aryans, and Stalin's a heaven-on-earth for the workers. Yet somehow the "secondary" goals on the way to this "main" goal--the killing of millions who stood in the way of the future utopia--sort of took over, didn't it?

Third, so what if Hizbullah might have other goals except the destruction of israel and a second holocaust? Compared to the enormity of this goal, all other goals it might have pale into insignificance. It's as if you said that Ted Bundy isn't that bad because he had "multiple goals"--stamp collecting, killing and raping women, chess, gourmet cooking...

Well Hezbollah didn't exist pre the ocupation.

So what?

If "X didn't exist before Y" or "X was caused by Y" is good reason to morally blame X on Y, then if a rapist got the idea of raping and killing miss Jones when he saw her in a hot red dress, it's all her fault.

But, of course, such junk reasoning is only considered some sort of "sophisticated understanding of the root cause of the conflict" when the "root cause" is--surprise, surprise--blaming the west or israel or the USA.

 

[geni]

1) I am unmoved.

Uh huh. Perhaps you would find the DRC style of warfare to your likeing

Those that took track and field in highschool should fare well. Try again for bonus points. IOW, five miles at a time doesn't equate to genocide or any other kind of 'cide,

Rather more than 5 miles. The 9K51 Grad can in theory fire 4 rockets a minute

2) I too would like to be left to my own affairs. The IRS, ATF, FBI, CIA, VBPD and various other accronyms won't let me. Yet I'm good with that. Yields far more benefits than not.

What do the Maronites gain from not being left to mind their own affairs? This isn't their war. Heck they were allied with Israel at one point.

 

[AmateurScientist]

The problem is that massive land boarder with Syria. Syria will support Hezbollah. Hezbollah and those who support Hezbollah would not be the ones suffering under such condtions

That's why the Israelis took out the road from Beirut to Damascus. If Syria joins in, however, you're probably right.

Hezbollah are probably the single strongest force in the country. It isn't it's supporters who are going to be starving.

Again, you could be right here. We'll have to wait and see.

Israel doesn't have the death penitalty (with I think an exception for nazi war criminals). It is one of it's better points.

Well, then someone should point that out to the Mossad. Maybe the leaders will meet their demise through unfortunate but curious accidents and it won't be televised.

And Hezbollah would rearm. Hezbollah are good at what they do. This isn't the PLO.

Keep rearming with rockets? Against the Israeli Army and Air Force and Navy? They can keep that up only so long. If this continues long enough, Israel will eventually cut off all supply lines.

The Maronites are probably ahead of you but historicaly they have been difficult to kill off. Their homeland is also fairly defensible (of course there is a reason for this.

They are merely caught in the crossfire. In the larger Arab Muslim World, which is what I was referring to, it's infidels who must be killed according to the Koran, not any particular ethnic group.

The UN does other stuff. The WHO is a UN agency

Sure, but that's not why it was formed. It has failed miserably at its original task, which is what I said up above. The WHO could easily function without the greater UN.

AS

 

[geni]

So what?

If "X didn't exist before Y" or "X was caused by Y" is good reason to morally blame X on Y, then if a rapist got the idea of raping and killing miss Jones when he saw her in a hot red dress, it's all her fault.

That has never been shown to be the case.

I can be shown that rapists act indepenantly of dress.

It can't be shown that groups like Hezbollah turn up independantly of being occupied by Israel.

But, of course, such junk reasoning is only considered some sort of "sophisticated understanding of the root cause of the conflict" when the "root cause" is--surprise, surprise--blaming the west or israel or the USA.

Again you ignore sun tzu at you peril. You wan't to think tacticaly but that doesn't work in the long term.

At the very least you should make an effort to understand the demographics of lebanon and the history of the area (there is a reason I blame the French).

 

[Checkmite]

I want you all to know, this thread made my day. Thanks guys.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Still popular. Mass killing of civilians exists in the militry doctrine of most major world powers.

No.

No they were formed after Israel invaded.

And Israel invaded because of other terrorist groups.

In fact so far Isreal appears to have killed more civilians (I don't know how the figures stand with regard to injuries). Hezbollah have killed 8 Israeli soldiers. I'm yet to see a death toll of Hezbollah militants that I belive.

No, Hezbollah killed the Lebanese civilians.

Israel tried occupying quite a bit Lebanon. Didn't work out to well.

Then perhaps Israel should try annexation.

I'd rather hang onto the Lebanese goverment. they are one of the more pro-western ones in the area.

Not as pro-Western as Israel.

They can't even seem to occupy Israel without the harrassment.

Huh?

Hezballah are more a classic guerilla group. A more competant version of the french resistance movement during WW2.

Except that the French Resistance was acting in self-defense.

Never knew you were a fan of genocide.

You and Cleon make unfounded accusations of "smearing", then you go and smear with the accusation of "genocide". YOU are sickening. You accuse people who supports Israel's right to self-defense as being a fan of "genocide". But you're not anti-Semitic.

15 years? They were under ocupation for most of that time.

Because they kept attacking Israel.

The French created Lebanon. Who else are you going to blame for the demographic issues?

We're not talking about demographic issues, we're talking about TERRORISM ISSUES.

 

[webfusion]

geni mentions, wrongly:It can't be shown that groups like Hezbollah turn up independantly of being occupied by Israel.

Who you gonna call?
Mythbusters.

PLO. 1964-1965
Its' first attack was against Israel's National Water Carrier (MEKOROT).
There was no Israeli 'occupation' at the time.

Geni, what are you trying to achieve here? I've been lurking and watching for a few pages, and here's yet another thread you dive into head-first and end up finding out the hard way how shallow that end of the pool is.

Hexbollocks is going to find itself in the same position as HAMAS at the end of the day -- disarmed and with a UN force watching its every move, in Gaza and the Lebanon. Watch and learn...

(BTW, the UN is already in force in Lebanon, and they hadn't done a thing to keep this war from breaking out. Nobody's heard a peep from UNIFIL.)

 

[a_unique_person]

Who you gonna call?
Mythbusters.

PLO. 1964-1965
Its' first attack was against Israel's National Water Carrier (MEKOROT).
There was no Israeli 'occupation' at the time.

Geni, what are you trying to achieve here? I've been lurking and watching for a few pages, and here's yet another thread you dive into head-first and end up finding out the hard way how shallow that end of the pool is.

Hexbollocks is going to find itself in the same position as HAMAS at the end of the day -- disarmed and with a UN force watching its every move, in Gaza and the Lebanon. Watch and learn...

(BTW, the UN is already in force in Lebanon, and they hadn't done a thing to keep this war from breaking out. Nobody's heard a peep from UNIFIL.)

UNIFIL currently employs some 2000 soldiers, 50 UNTSO observers and 400 civilians [4]. The force includes troops from Ghana, Poland, India, France, Ukraine, Italy and Ireland. Its annual budget is about US$100 million. UNIFIL is led by French Major General Alain Pellegrini, formerly French military attache in Beirut and head of the mideast division of the French military intelligence.
To date UNIFIL has suffered over 250 fatalities during the course of its deployment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIFIL
From wikipedia. 250 fatalities? Doesn't sound like it's just a picnic for them, Fusion.

 

[geni]

No.

Other than china they tend to have first stike nuclear policies. So yes.

And Israel invaded because of other terrorist groups.

Pretty much. Not lebanese ones though.

No, Hezbollah killed the Lebanese civilians.

Evidences?

Then perhaps Israel should try annexation.

Why should that work any better?

Not as pro-Western as Israel.

I'm not sure there is a scale to measure that.

Except that the French Resistance was acting in self-defense.

Hezbollah were formed in a country under occupation and started attacking the occupier. Just one of those things that prevents things from ever being that simple.

You and Cleon make unfounded accusations of "smearing",

Unfounded? You know it isn't often I'm accused of sympathy.

then you go and smear with the accusation of "genocide".

It ws the logical end point of his position. Of course this is only a problem if you view genocide as implictly wrong

YOU are sickening. You accuse people who supports Israel's right to self-defense as being a fan of "genocide".

Strawman.

But you're not anti-Semitic.

The right to left thing does get on my nerves but there are worse langaues.

Because they kept attacking Israel.

Perhaps but since it failed to prevent that there was little logic in expending the rescources to do so.

We're not talking about demographic issues, we're talking about TERRORISM ISSUES.

This is lebanon. The demographics are fundimental to understanding the place.

Of course your position is more ah emotionaly satisfying with it's clear gooddies and baddies but it doesn't in the end get you very far.

 

[Rob Lister]

Well Web, your not the first to figure out Geni. But I digress.

Fact is, Israel can pretty much do whatever the hell Israel wants to do so long as one player, and only one player, doesn't stay their hand.

That player's name is known to all.

I'm not sure what Hezbollah is planning other than kidnapping dozens of U.S./E.U. nationals and hoping everyone takes a typical Carter/EU approach.

I'm not too sure that's in the cards this time...I hope not.

Yes, Geni (in case you're reading), I understand it will probably mean the deathmurderkill of the hostage...erm...spys, but hopefully we, along with israel, will hit them hard enough for long enough to make them long, long regret their move and even longer abstain from another like move.

Their civilians will die in the collatoral...one hundred times ours if we are really gentle. If we really get pissed, make that a 10000:1 ratio. It isn't like there's not historical precedent.

I'm really quite sick of it. I have no ties to Israel other than a philosophical understanding of the situation. I'm not even sure I know any Jews (except those writings I know from this forum).

I can't understand how Israel has stayed so gentle for so long.

I'm I for Genocide Gini? No more so than Hamas. No more so than Hezbollah. Much less so in fact. A real-life lesson is still in order.

Radical Islam, please meet the sleeping giant's little slumbering buddy Israel...just awakening now.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Hmmm. About 10/year. Out of 2000. 0.5% each year. Looks like members are less likely to die than the general population.

ETA: This is in reference to UNIFL.

 

[Jocko]

The French created Lebanon. Who else are you going to blame for the demographic issues?

Er, Hezbollah? The people whose 20-year call for Israel's destruction you now willfully ignore? How about blaming them?

Sorry, Geni, you've officially entered what I consider apologist territory and I really have nothing else to say to you on the matter.

 

[geni]

Who you gonna call?
Mythbusters.

PLO. 1964-1965
Its' first attack was against Israel's National Water Carrier (MEKOROT).
There was no Israeli 'occupation' at the time.

Hezbollah are not the PLO. Different idiologies. Different set up. Different style. And of course Hezbollah is competant.

Hexbollocks is going to find itself in the same position as HAMAS at the end of the day -- disarmed and with a UN force watching its every move, in Gaza and the Lebanon. Watch and learn...

A bold claim. One that history does not support.

 

[Polaris]

For future reference:

Hezbollah= a Lebanese Islamist group, with a military arm and a civilian arm, founded in 1982 to fight the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon.

They're also the groups of thugs in uniform who walk Iranian streets, violently enforcing "virtue".

 

[geni]

Well Web, your not the first to figure out Geni. But I digress.

Fact is, Israel can pretty much do whatever the hell Israel wants to do so long as one player, and only one player, doesn't stay their hand.

That player's name is known to all.

There are probably currenty 5 country caperble of wiping Israel of the map within about 20 minutes of decideing to do so.

I'm not sure what Hezbollah is planning other than kidnapping dozens of U.S./E.U. nationals and hoping everyone takes a typical Carter/EU approach.

Hezbollah have shown they can survive being occupied. That is most likely what they are banking on.

I'm not too sure that's in the cards this time...I hope not.

Post Iraq we are pretty used to haveing hostages killed and the fractionalism within the E.U means that most E.U nationals are not going to have much leaverage power.

Yes, Geni (in case you're reading), I understand it will probably mean the deathmurderkill of the hostage...erm...spys, but hopefully we, along with israel, will hit them hard enough for long enough to make them long, long regret their move and even longer abstain from another like move.

The Chechen still cause trouble. You can't hit people much harder than Russia hit Chechnya.

Their civilians will die in the collatoral...one hundred times ours if we are really gentle. If we really get pissed, make that a 10000:1 ratio. It isn't like there's not historical precedent.

It depends on the civilians. Killing the shia makes a degree of sense for a pure militry perspective. Killing Maronites is illogical in the long run and is unlikely to play well in the US.

I can't understand how Israel has stayed so gentle for so long.

Worries over Russia getting involved probably.

I'm I for Genocide Gini? No more so than Hamas. No more so than Hezbollah. Much less so in fact. A real-life lesson is still in order.

A lession to who?

Radical Islam, please meet the sleeping giant's little slumbering buddy Israel...just awakening now.

You can't kill radical islam any more than you can kill the american dream.

 

[geni]

Er, Hezbollah? The people whose 20-year call for Israel's destruction you now willfully ignore? How about blaming them?

I don't think you can blame them for the increaseing population of shia. I mean generaly attacking the IDF is a fairly effective way of removeing yourself from the breeding population.

Sorry, Geni, you've officially entered what I consider apologist territory and I really have nothing else to say to you on the matter.

Whatever makes you life easy.

 

[webfusion]

UAV now seen in action ---

Art, the UNIFIL casualties are not 10/year. There was a specific period 1978 -1982 where they lost a lot of people, primarily because they weren't doing their jobs effectively. When Israel had to step in and do the dirty work, these UNIFIL guys were just caught in the ensuing crossfire between the IDF and the PLO. Finally, Israel said "enough is enough" and went across the border in 1982. That situation is similar to what is happening today.
And as I said, not one peep from UNIFIL.


Meanwhile, this interesting report:

• Four Israel Navy sailors were reported missing after an explosives-laden drone, apparently launched by Hezbollah, hit a naval vessel off the coast of Beirut Friday night.

Hmmmmmm, an aircraft loaded with explosives. It would follow reasonably that the HAMAS in Gaza also has a few of these puppies prepared and ready to launch against Tel Aviv skyscrapers during this current war. Yes, that sure would fit in perfectly with the ongoing bombardment being conducted against Haifa and other Israeli cities by Hexbollocks, who are clearly coordinating this war with HAMAS.


eta -- I see that Mycroft picked up on this quickly, and understands the implications. He has started a new thread about this topic

Thanks for noticing. It gets tiring to always reply to the nay-sayers and keep the record straight. I'm glad this one didn't get swept under the carpet. After all, I cannot think of a more drastic result than a Tel Aviv skyscraper coming under a 9-11-type assault right now (and the smoking finger on the trigger pointing right back at IRAN).