Hezbollah: take that

[geni]

Yet it is still the weapon of choice this week. What does this tell you about the degree of care with which Hezbollah choses targets?

Greater than say Hamas. I doubt Hezbollah can afford laser guided bombs. The 9K51 Grad isn't as inacurrate as some weapon systems.

Yeah, asymmetrical warfare's a bitch when it cuts both ways, ain't it? Makes one wonder why Hezbollah hasn't returned the hostages they snatched while murdering 3 soldiers in their own country.

Hezbollah thinks Israel is occpying part of Lebanon. Most of the rest of the world thinks that area is part of Syria.

Maybe Hezbollah doesn't care if their fellow citizens die. And they're supposed to be on the same side... with friends like that, etc. etc.

"supposed to be on the same side" Since when? Lebanon is an atrificial construct made up of groups who historicaly have not got on.

They would be easier to pick out if they wore uniforms and didn't hide behind children. You know, if they didn't act like the cowardly terrorist scum they are.

Cowardly? Please. Next you will be calling the Greek resitance cowardly.

 

[Rob Lister]

All I gotta say is: about damn time.

Hit them hard, very hard. Capture land and DONT give it back. Make every attack, every death of an Israeli citizen = five square miles of new, permanent Israeli territory. By the time Palestine and Lebanon figure it out, they'll be in the sea.

So far, I'm glad to see, Bush is playing this correctly. Not exactly washing his hands of the matter but certainly not taking any steps to stay Israel's hand.

Good on you Israel.

 

[Huntster]

....By the time Palestine and Lebanon figure it out, they'll be in the sea.....

They'll never figure anything out.

Good on you Israel.

Agreed.

 

[Jocko]

Greater than say Hamas. I doubt Hezbollah can afford laser guided bombs. The 9K51 Grad isn't as inacurrate as some weapon systems.

So, obviously the problem is that Hezbollah, Hamas, et. al. simply lack the hardware required to avoid unnecessary civilian deaths. Maybe we should consider selling them some advanced JDAMs and a few F-18s to carry them?

Geni, how much money does it require for a Palestinian teenager to distinguish between a tank and a bus?

Hezbollah thinks Israel is occpying part of Lebanon. Most of the rest of the world thinks that area is part of Syria.

I don't give a flip about their reasons. What possible good could come from killing 3 soldiers and snatching 2 more? Is it about getting their imaginary "occupied" land back, or is it about freeing more terrorists to facilitate more kidnappings and murder? With, I might add, the financial handicaps that result in Sbarro's being mistaken for a command post, and other tragic inequities.

"supposed to be on the same side" Since when? Lebanon is an atrificial construct made up of groups who historicaly have not got on.

I wonder if that has anything to do with the way they treat their neighbors? Besides, in this context at least, they're all non-Israeli and that's more than enough unity for the purposes of lobbing rockets.

Cowardly? Please. Next you will be calling the Greek resitance cowardly.

No, because that would be a derail.

 

[Rob Lister]

They'll never figure anything out.



Agreed.

The only difficulty is that Hezbulla will now begin kidnapping International (specifically US) civilians in Lebonon so as to do what they do best (hide behind women, children and civilians in general).

I can't speak for other countries (actually, I can, pretty much, but wont) but I don't think Bush is going to fall for it. He'll send in troops to rescue (or attempt to rescue leaving many dead militants in the path) any U.S. citizens wanting to go (some idiots will not).

Best thing any U.S. or other International civilians can do at this point is find safe-houses in the christian neighborhoods (which have necessarily become strongholds in and of themselves) and hope to get a U.S. escort out.

I seriously doubt any U.N. escorts are forthcoming...at least not without endless debate, endless condemnations (against Israel, of course), endless resolutions, warnings and finially apathy (they won't listen, there's nothing we can do but once again condemn Israel!).

Let the games begin.

 

[geni]

All I gotta say is: about damn time.

Hit them hard, very hard. Capture land and DONT give it back. Make every attack, every death of an Israeli citizen = five square miles of new, permanent Israeli territory. By the time Palestine and Lebanon figure it out, they'll be in the sea.

Israel tried occupying quite a bit Lebanon. Didn't work out to well.

So far, I'm glad to see, Bush is playing this correctly. Not exactly washing his hands of the matter but certainly not taking any steps to stay Israel's hand.

Good on you Israel.

I'd rather hang onto the Lebanese goverment. they are one of the more pro-western ones in the area.

 

[Rob Lister]

Israel tried occupying quite a bit Lebanon. Didn't work out to well.



I'd rather hang onto the Lebanese goverment. they are one of the more pro-western ones in the area.

1) if at first you don't succeed, do a better job in deportation.

2) Then they better get a lot more western real damn quick.

 

[Huntster]

The only difficulty is that Hezbulla will now begin kidnapping International (specifically US) civilians in Lebonon so as to do what they do best (hide behind women, children and civilians in general).

Yeah, that seems to be the pattern.

I can't speak for other countries (actually, I can, pretty much, but wont) but I don't think Bush is going to fall for it. He'll send in troops to rescue (or attempt to rescue leaving many dead militants in the path) any U.S. citizens wanting to go (some idiots will not).

Best thing any U.S. or other International civilians can do at this point is find safe-houses in the christian neighborhoods (which have necessarily become strongholds in and of themselves) and hope to get a U.S. escort out.

Frankly, I can't see any reason whatsoever to be there in the first place.

I seriously doubt any U.N. escorts are forthcoming...at least not without endless debate, endless condemnations (against Israel, of course), endless resolutions, warnings and finially apathy (they won't listen, there's nothing we can do but once again condem Israel!).

No foreign policy in this country occurs without endless debate, endless condemnations (against all sides), endless resolutions, warnings, and finally apathy.

Like the Palestinians and Lebanese, Americans never learn, either.

 

[Jocko]

Israel tried occupying quite a bit Lebanon. Didn't work out to well.

I don't think occupation is the goal here.

I'd rather hang onto the Lebanese goverment. they are one of the more pro-western ones in the area.

You know, it's great to have a neighbor who likes you. But if he's a slob with a backyard full of garbage where rats breed, and won't do anything effective to clean it up, his goodwill soon pales next to your new rat problem.

 

[Huntster]

Israel tried occupying quite a bit Lebanon. Didn't work out to well....

They can't even seem to occupy Israel without the harrassment.

I like the tactic of plotting incoming artillery/mortar/rockets, then sending back bigger and more artillery/mortar/rockets. Airstrikes are really neat, too. Let the opposition know you're having the time of your life killing them. Make them think you're having fun.

Occupation? What for? Pound the place, pound it good, and make them occupy it.

 

[Rob Lister]

They can't even seem to occupy Israel without the harrassment.

I like the tactic of plotting incoming artillery/mortar/rockets, then sending back bigger and more artillery/mortar/rockets. Airstrikes are really neat, too. Let the opposition know you're having the time of your life killing them. Make them think you're having fun.

Occupation? What for? Pound the place, pound it good, and make them occupy it.

I like that. But I still like taking a bounty of five (razed/bulldozed) square miles for each rocket fired, each Israeli death.

P.S. Please note that I first talked of the U.S. and what I thought Bush was going to do (no debate necessary there, he has all the authority he needs) and then I talked about what the U.N. was going to do (ab-so-lut-ly nothing but talk and pass resolutions...maybe send in some smurfs to die for the U.N. cause, then pull out real damn quick declaring it a lost cause and blaming Israel for all the smurfs killed by Hezbulla).

 

[geni]

So, obviously the problem is that Hezbollah, Hamas, et. al. simply lack the hardware required to avoid unnecessary civilian deaths. Maybe we should consider selling them some advanced JDAMs and a few F-18s to carry them?

I'm sure that if they had them they would use them. They probably would stick to targeting mititery stuff at least as far as any army does that.

Geni, how much money does it require for a Palestinian teenager to distinguish between a tank and a bus?

Hezballah are not Palestinian. The evidence suggests they do know the difference and as a result managed to knock out a Merkava Mk. II. Not easy.

I don't give a flip about their reasons.

You should. Sun Tzu was right about that.

What possible good could come from killing 3 soldiers and snatching 2 more?
Is it about getting their imaginary "occupied" land back, or is it about freeing more terrorists to facilitate more kidnappings and murder?

Hezballah are more a classic guerilla group. A more competant version of the french resistance movement during WW2.

This time around they probably want back those prisoners Israel picked up during the ocupation period.

I wonder if that has anything to do with the way they treat their neighbors?

Nah mostly religion based. The Maronites are christian and the Druze are difficult to classify.

Besides, in this context at least, they're all non-Israeli and that's more than enough unity for the purposes of lobbing rockets.

Not remotely. The Maronites probably don't care one way or the other as long as Israel stays away from them (the issue that it has failed to do so messes this up slightly). Something simular probably applies to the Druze.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You know, it's great to have a neighbor who likes you. But if he's a slob with a backyard full of garbage where rats breed, and won't do anything effective to clean it up, his goodwill soon pales next to your new rat problem.

Which is why Hezbollah and Hamas are such a - if I may - clear and present danger.

Here is a map of Israel. As anyone can see you have Hezbollah - who are #2 in total American kills next to Al Qaeda - on the northern border. Syria to the northeast, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the Popular Resistance Commitees on the west and east borders. That's a wack of islamic "does this suicide vest make me look fat?" wackjobs dedicated to Israel's destruction on three borders.

In the past month both Hamas and Hezbollah crossed into Israeli territory to ambush and kidnap soldiers - see: insurgency in Iraq. Hell, hostage taking was Hezbollah's speciality back in the good old 80s.

 

[geni]

1) if at first you don't succeed, do a better job in deportation.

Where to?

2) Then they better get a lot more western real damn quick.

They include at lot of christians is that enough?

 

[geni]

You know, it's great to have a neighbor who likes you. But if he's a slob with a backyard full of garbage where rats breed, and won't do anything effective to clean it up, his goodwill soon pales next to your new rat problem.

There is a difference between wont and can't. The Maronites would probably be quite relived (obviously they would not admint it) if israel got rid of Hezbollah. However they are going to have a hard time keeping the goverment intact if Israel is going to keep blowing up infastructure.

 

[geni]

Lebanon=A country set up by france with the theory that the Druze would always have a majority and therefor be able to run it. Due to differing birth rates things didn't quite turn out like that.

That should be "Maronite would always have a majority"

 

[Jocko]

I'm sure that if they had them they would use them. They probably would stick to targeting mititery stuff at least as far as any army does that.

If you are sure they would use them if given the chance, what makes you so sure they would use them against militaty objectives? I mean, no one's calling for the extermination of the IDF - they're calling for the extermination of Israel.

I'd really like to know what makes you believe that the Hezbolla, et. al. would suddenly become Geneva Convention-observing responsibility freaks if their ability to kill were magnified.

 

[Jocko]

There is a difference between wont and can't.

When your territory is invaded, you soldiers killed, your citizens taken hostage and your cities peppered by random rocket fire, there sure ISN'T a difference.

The Maronites would probably be quite relived (obviously they would not admint it) if israel got rid of Hezbollah. However they are going to have a hard time keeping the goverment intact if Israel is going to keep blowing up infastructure.

So it's all Israel's fault that Lebanon can't control her own rogue elements, LONG BEFORE THIS OPERATION.

I take it back, Geni, that IS the statement of an apologist.

 

[geni]

If you are sure they would use them if given the chance, what makes you so sure they would use them against militaty objectives? I mean, no one's calling for the extermination of the IDF - they're calling for the extermination of Israel.

Where did Hezbollah call for the extermination of Israel? More importantly when did Hezbollah claim to have any intention of doing that themselves.

I'd really like to know what makes you believe that the Hezbolla, et. al. would suddenly become Geneva Convention-observing responsibility freaks if their ability to kill were magnified.

The weapons listed are far more useful when it comes to attacking militry target rather than civilian ones.

 

[Rob Lister]

Where to?



They include at lot of christians is that enough?

1) in whatever direction your border is moving (read: in whatever direction they run...or die...)

2) Exceptions can be made on a case by case basis. That goes for muslims as well as christians. And if not, oh well.

Oh, and in case I'm not clear as to my opinion, I think the entire Gaza Striip should be pushed into Egypt (or flattened, doesn't matter to me), the entire West Bank pushed into Jordon (or flattened...I'm sure Jordon would bitch but not really care that it was flattened), the entire Golan Heights just flattened...makes a nice buffer zone as well as a nice vacation area for welltodo Israeli's.

To be more clear, I think Israel's neighbors need to get a clue that Israel ain't going nowhere.
I think Israel needs to get a clue that no matter how many concessions it makes, unless they die and disappear, it won't be concession enough for the the Islamic powers that be.
I think the U.S. (and the rest of the world) needs to get the same clue and know that staying Israel's hand is in everyone's long-term worst interest.

Israel is now because they are closest.

You're further away but you really are next.

They're not keeping this a secret.