[Moderated Thread] CFLarsen's and SteveGrenard's Pedophilia Thread

[SteveGrenard]

The font change starts with the text from Bullough's own website. He uses typewriter font old fashioned style. Why I don't know. Maybe its a scan he or someone prepared on a typewriter. It is weird. I added the comments as annotations. The videotape catalogue contains titles which include kiddie porn as well as standard adult porn. I have verified this with someone who shelled out several hundred dollars for it for reasons I can't get into as they don't involve or concern me. The Kaspar Hauser blurb speaks for itself and we know what Money thinks about masturbation which is what affectionate stimulation of the skin senses happens to be. But if Larsen or anyone wishes to doubt that it doesn't matter to me. Having sexual relations with animals and sado-masochistic sex are other topics which are justified as normal and are condoned by titles in this series. You may not think they are important but they round out the catalogue by covering thse additional degeneracies. I am not hung up on pedophilia because it is illegal but because it is one of a number of harmful degeneracies and are covered in this series.

And yes the "I" in the text of this quote stands for Vern Bullough as the excerpt is from his website and his typewriter or whatever was used to type this up.

I have made the point and presented the evidence. I was not interested in doing so but from the very beginning I was goaded into doing this by Larsen who would call me a liar if I didn't and in fact calls me a liar anyway but at least others here can make up their own minds if there is any truth to these posted proofs that say otherwise. It is up to the individual.

I thank you for ferreting out many important quotes relevant to this debate, Paidika, Bullough and especially the addition of John Money, another Prometheus author with several titles there to his credit. Now that Bullough and Money are recently deceased we may hear more in future.

Everything about this muddies the water. It is a given.

 

[HarryKeogh]

Steve, I don't see where you show Prometheus carries pro-pedophilia material. And even if they did, I am not sure what that would mean.

After all, Amazon carries Mein Kampf and The Turner Diaries. Doesn't make them Nazis..

Not sure if that analogy really works. Amazon carries but doesn't publish those books. Prometheus publishes the books in question.

I am sorry you don't see Children's Encounters with Adults or Kaspar Hauser as pro-paedophilia tomes. Or the Horseman as a pro-bestiality book or Q as a book extolling the pleasures of sado-masochism.

This is the only blurb I could find on The Horseman...

http://www.drmiletski.com/prolog.html

Mark Matthews: The Horseman; Obsessions of a Zoophile. In this book, the author describes his struggles to accept the fact that he loved his horse more than he loved his wife. He portrayed himself as an intelligent, professional individual, sexually attracted to horses, and eventually, after admitting to himself his love for his horse, he married his horse.

From this I don't see how this is pro-bestiality any more than a book detailing David Berkowitz's inner turmoil over his killing spree would be pro-murder. It's not like the book teaches one how to have sex with a horse. For that please see the book "When neigh really means yes"

And for the record...yes, I laughed at "he married his horse".

Anyway, Steve; I am a bit dismayed that a CSICOP fellow would also serve on the board of a journal that is pro-pedophilia and I don't think I ever would have found out if you didn't bring it up. After weighing the evidence I am of the opinion he is pro-pedophilia. Not in the "would you like some candy" then sticks them in the trunk of his car sense but thinks it's possible in a good deal of instances for adults to have healthy relations (consisting of both physical and emotional aspects) with willing children.

So we agree on some points, disagree on others. All without being nasty to each other.

 

[Luke T.]

The videotape catalogue contains titles which include kiddie porn as well as standard adult porn. I have verified this with someone who shelled out several hundred dollars for it for reasons I can't get into as they don't involve or concern me.

Some adult porn can have titles that are suggestive of pedophilia but actually involve all adult actors.

Also, there was an actress by the name of Traci Lords who was a minor when she made "mainstream" adult porn movies. It was not known at the time that she was a minor. She claimed to be in her early 20s. It wasn't until she turned 18 for real that she announced her real age, and then all her previous titles had to be pulled from the shelves. Some people think this was a canny business move on her part as she was able, due to her fame up to that point, gain some rights to her only legal film, and by running all the others off the shelves, she eliminated the competition for the remaining film with her in it.

I think I learned all this on True Hollywood Story. Don't remember.

Anyway, if a Traci Lords film is listed in this catalog, I guess it technically qualifies as a "kiddie film". So is it a Lords film you are referring to? Or is all you know is what your friend told you, the sum total of which is that there is some undefined "kiddie porn" in this catalog?

You must realize we are hearing about this catalog "kiddie porn" thirdhand, and therefore cannot accept it as evidence of anything.

 

[Checkmite]

I was under the impression that "kiddy porn" isn't exactly the sort of thing that would come with "titles"; excepting of course instances of the sort Luke T describes (Traci Lords, etc).

 

[SteveGrenard]

I was under the impression that "kiddy porn" isn't exactly the sort of thing that would come with "titles"; excepting of course instances of the sort Luke T describes (Traci Lords, etc).

This is not an area I have any knowledge or particular expertise in so I don't know and just know what I was told. This is an 8 volume set listing thousands of videos. Some volumes are sold out already so they are no longer listed (e.g. Vol VIII). Yes the information is second hand to me and third hand to you. I have no idea if they were alluding to Traci Lords or to other material
and won't bother to find out since it would be third hand.

It matters little.

I cannot figure out who this is directed at or what scholarly or scientific purpose it serves or what meaning this has for Prometheus. The big question is why would a publisher which publishes serious scholarly tomes publish something like this. It is just some additional grist for this weird mill.

 

[HarryKeogh]

This is not an area I have any knowledge or particular expertise in so I don't know and just know what I was told.

Then you really shouldn't say it lists child pornography until you know for sure whether it does or does not.

That's a pretty serious accusation.

 

[Luke T.]

Once again and for I dont know how many times, I offer the following in response to Claus requestnfor Prometheus titles justifying paedophilia, This from from Bullough's vita, Part 1, April, 2006:

C.K. Li, D. J. West, and T. P. Woodhouse, Sexual Encouters with Adults

(note: correct title should be Children's Encounters with Adults but this seems to be missing here unless it is another book.)

Actually, it's Children's Sexual Encounters With Adults: A Scientific Study.

Carried on Amazon.com.

I think that's the first time I've seen a book on Amazon that doesn't have a review with it.

August 22, 1999. I received an anonymous e-mail today from someone identified only as RandiExpert@Hotmail.com, directing me to a WWW site devoted to attacking James Randi, Paul Kurtz, the False Memory Foundation, CSICOP, and Prometheus Books, while defending Uri Geller and someone called Riley G. The site, misleadingly called The Truth About James Randi and others, is particularly vicious in its defamation of Randi, making slanderous if not libelous claims of child molestation in explicit, obscene terms. The others attacked are implicated in pedophilia, as well. For instance, Kurtz is said to be chairman of Prometheus Books, which is said to publish "books about children's sexual encounters with adults." The anonymous attacker does not mention that the book in question is titled Children's Sexual Encounters With Adults : A Scientific Study. According to BookNews, the study

Assesses the social constructs of sexuality and examines the various motivations behind sexual encounters between adults and children, presenting the findings of two important research projects on pedophilia: that of C.K. Li, who conducted voluntary interviews with men who admitted to a sexual interest in young girls or boys; and that of D.J. West and T.P. Woodhouse (co-authors, with Li, of this volume), who questioned groups of adult males, both students and others, about their recollections of sexual encounters when they were boys (and compared the findings with those of a similar survey of women).

The implication is that anyone who would study pedophilia or children's sexual behavior, or be in any way connected to the publication of such a study, or challenge conventional wisdom about the traumatic nature of all sexual experience for children, or support any organization who has at least one member who does any of the above, is a pedophile and a child molester.

The deeper implication is that characters like Riley G, Uri Geller and their supporters may abandon argument and defense against charges of fraud, charlatanism, etc., and simply accuse their critics of being child molesters. Their hope would be that the masses are uncritical and unknowing, would assume that where there's smoke there's fire, and would then ignore the skeptics and their claims. Above all they would hope that several bottom feeders in the mass media would pick up the story and try to make it another Monicagate. Anyone expressing skeptical views about the paranormal or creationism will be subject to this kind of defamation. I mention politically active creationists because these fanatical fundamentalists will use any means necessary to stifle criticism and attack any view they think implies that their fairy tale about God and creation is false. If slander works for the paranormal frauds, you can be sure the politically active creationist charlatans will imitate them.

The offensive site is being hosted by Freeyellow.com whose e-mail address is tos@freeyellow.com

I filed a complaint with Freeyellow.com and within 24 hours the offensive anti-Randi site was removed. If you are interested in what was there, I suggest you write to the coward who will not identify himself but accepts e-mail at RandiExpert@Hotmail.com Perhaps he will expose himself.

http://skepdic.com/refuge/funk6.html

 

[Luke T.]

Okay. This web site lists Children's Sexual Encounters With Adults : A Scientific Study as recommended reading.

If you look at their entire list and read their summaries of each book, and look around the site, you will see this site is clearly intended to help eliminate and/or prevent pedophilia, and help victims of pedophilia.

Some reviews of other books on the same page of that link:

It outlines how sexual misconduct by clergy is a breach of power and trust. It helps churches know how to aid those who have been abused and, importantly, gives guidance on the prevention of abuse by clergy.

Echols strips bare the world of Pentecostals to reveal how impassioned faith and devotion to the "annointed ones" blinded parents to the evil in their midst.

The author of two important works, Weeping in the Playtime of Others and The Children of Jonestown, now offers a new book based on his numerous interviews with convicted child molesters, rapists, and murderers in which he clearly outlines scenarios and explains the basic lures and tricks molesters use to abuse children.

So in that context, Children's Sexual Encounters With Adults : A Scientific Study hardly strikes me as pro-pedophilia.

 

[slingblade]

Can you put that in the Wayback Machine, Sherman, and come up with something lingering, I wonder?


(yes, double-entendres intended)

 

[Luke T.]

Oh, by the way, Steve. That one review about "evil in their midst" is for a book called Brother Tony's Boys: The Largest Case of Child Prostitution in U.S. History: The True Story, and is published by none other than Prometheus Books.

Another anti-pedophilia book.

Brother Tony's Boys:
The Largest Case of Child Prostitution in U.S. History: The True Story (Amazon)
by Mike Echols
Hardcover
Published by Prometheus Books
Publication date: July 1,1996

Synopsis: Foe over 25 years, charismatic Pentecostal evangelist Brother Tony Leyva used Christianity, the Bible, and his status as a "prophet of God" to gain access to, seduce, and sexually assault the young sons of his enthralled followers in 23 states. Echols strips bare the world of Pentecostals to reveal how impassioned faith and devotion to the "annointed ones" blinded parents to the evil in their midst.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Then you really shouldn't say it lists child pornography until you know for sure whether it does or does not.

That's a pretty serious accusation.

Not actually. Listing the videos in a directory which neither shows or sells them or depicts them in anyway is not serious nor is it illegal. Again, it would seem the imperative here to to document everything to do with this business while not engaging in the business itself.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Okay. This web site lists Children's Sexual Encounters With Adults : A Scientific Study as recommended reading.

If you look at their entire list and read their summaries of each book, and look around the site, you will see this site is clearly intended to help eliminate and/or prevent pedophilia, and help victims of pedophilia.

Stop to consider the possibility that such books are used by paedophiles as training manuals. I believe someone earlier pointed out that this title was embraced by NAMBLA and that among the sentiments is the harmless nonesense for paedophilia that we have been hearing elsewhere. I am sure this will help victims of paedophilia in dealing with their problems.

It seems for every positive or pro-paedophilia angle there is an anti-paedophilia angle as well. You can twist anything around to suit your agenda of the moment I suppose and I am finding that out in this thread.

 

[SteveGrenard]

And by the way Luke I never heard of Randi, Kurtz, Prometheus, Bullough, Money, Paidika, CSICOP, organized skepticism or anything related thereto until after my son died in 2001 so if you or anyone is implying that the message posted above has anything to do with me they need to take a good look at the date. I made the Prometheus-CSICOP-Porno-Bullough-Paidika connection myself and did so with widely available web-based evidence.

 

[Luke T.]

And by the way Luke I never heard of Randi, Kurtz, Prometheus, Bullough, Money, Paidika, CSICOP, organized skepticism or anything related thereto until after my son died in 2001 so if you or anyone is implying that the message posted above has anything to do with me they need to take a good look at the date. I made the Prometheus-CSICOP-Porno-Bullough-Paidika connection myself and did so with widely available web-based evidence.

No, it was not my intention to imply that you were the source. Let me make that very clear. Sorry if that is what you inferred.

I just thought it interesting that it coincides with your claims, and just shows this stuff has persisted for some time now.

 

[Luke T.]

It seems for every positive or pro-paedophilia angle there is an anti-paedophilia angle as well. You can twist anything around to suit your agenda of the moment I suppose and I am finding that out in this thread.

I think the only twisting around of the children's sexual encounters book has been done by the folks behind the smear campaign I quoted above from Skeptic's Dictionary, and you have been parroting it without really looking into it.

And I have my doubts it is used as a training manual for pedophiles. I'm sure they would find the material in Paedika far more stimulating than a dry scientific study of the inner workings of pedophiles' thought patterns examined in a critical light.

I think some people saw the title of the book and drew conclusions on that alone, and constructed an evil plot around it that isn't there. And ignored another book published by the same company which is also an anti-pedophile book, because its title doesn't fit the theory.

Meanwhile, professionals who actually work in the field of sexual abuse prevention are recommending both as required reading.

Kinda makes you wonder who did the more thorough examination of the book, doesn't it?

 

[SteveGrenard]

No, it was not my intention to imply that you were the source. Let me make that very clear. Sorry if that is what you inferred.

I just thought it interesting that it coincides with your claims, and just shows this stuff has persisted for some time now.

Partially yes except my research has not involved James Randi in any way. Some checking turns up Riley G., an ex-NYC Police Officer now an actor and living in Las Vegas. I seem to recall he had some sort of grudge against Randi after I became interested (in late 2001) in this field but I never quite understood what it was about.

Google "Riley G."

 

[SteveGrenard]

I think the only twisting around of the children's sexual encounters book has been done by the folks behind the smear campaign I quoted above from Skeptic's Dictionary, and you have been parroting it without really looking into it.

Actually what I have been saying can be found in black and white; you even found a lot of it. If you now want to take the Skepdic view of this and doubt what you read with your own eyes and brain then that is fine.

Accepting the line of the party instead of being truly skeptical has always been something which disturbed me. I rely on my own observations ... what I can see, hear, and feel and analyze this as objectively as possible.

And I have my doubts it is used as a training manual for pedophiles. I'm sure they would find the material in Paedika far more stimulating than a dry scientific study of the inner workings of pedophiles' thought patterns examined in a critical light.

Somewhere back a hundred or more posts there was a finding that this book was recommended by NAMBLA and we both know what their position is. If this book appears on their reading list my feeling is it would because the information therein has some relevance to the people who belong to this organization and its not to help cure themselves. However, I too am sure they find Paidika more enlightening. The only connection between Paidika and this book is that Bullough pops up involved with both.

I think some people saw the title of the book and drew conclusions on that alone, and constructed an evil plot around it that isn't there. And ignored another book published by the same company which is also an anti-pedophile book, because its title doesn't fit the theory.

Yes this is true. Are we talking about the Prometheus Bullough edited title?

Meanwhile, professionals who actually work in the field of sexual abuse prevention are recommending both as required reading.

As it should.

Kinda makes you wonder who did the more thorough examination of the book, doesn't it?

If this title was recommended by NAMBLA and for professionals working in abuse prevention(and by whom was it thus recommended?) and law enforcement involving victims one, can presume it has information of value for both.

 

[CFLarsen]

I am sorry you don't see Children's Encounters with Adults or Kaspar Hauser as pro-paedophilia tomes.

There is nothing that indicates that the Kaspar Hauser book is pro-pedophilia.

Or a video catalogue that publicizes and reviews adult and kiddie porn.

There is no evidence of this.

The videotape catalogue contains titles which include kiddie porn as well as standard adult porn. I have verified this with someone who shelled out several hundred dollars for it for reasons I can't get into as they don't involve or concern me.

That is not verification. That is an unverifiable anecdote. You cannot possibly expect us to accept such a source as valid.

and we know what Money thinks about masturbation which is what affectionate stimulation of the skin senses happens to be. But if Larsen or anyone wishes to doubt that it doesn't matter to me.

You have not provided evidence that "skin senses" is a code term used in the "scientific study" of paedophilia.

I have made the point and presented the evidence.

You have made serious accusations that CSICOP condone, justify and glorify pedophilia. You have presented absolutely no evidence.

I was not interested in doing so

Then why do you keep bringing it up? You are the one who started with the accusations, and you have kept bringing them up from time to time.

but from the very beginning I was goaded into doing this by Larsen who would call me a liar if I didn't and in fact calls me a liar anyway

If you don't want to be called a liar, stop telling falsehoods.

Now that Bullough and Money are recently deceased we may hear more in future.

What is that supposed to mean? What does their death have to do with anything?

Everything about this muddies the water. It is a given.

And that, I suspect, is the sole reason for this ongoing campaign of yours against skeptics.

Again: Please present evidence of your by now many claims. Answer the questions.

 

[Luke T.]

Actually what I have been saying can be found in black and white; you even found a lot of it. If you now want to take the Skepdic view of this and doubt what you read with your own eyes and brain then that is fine.

Accepting the line of the party instead of being truly skeptical has always been something which disturbed me. I rely on my own observations ... what I can see, hear, and feel and analyze this as objectively as possible.

Steve, did I not come here and support in your favor that Paidika was pro-pedophilia, and that it was wrong for a CSICOP Fellow to be associated with that journal? Come on.

With that same objectivity, I have not found any substance to the assertions that Children's Sexual Encounters With Adults is pro-pedophilia.

Somewhere back a hundred or more posts there was a finding that this book was recommended by NAMBLA and we both know what their position is. If this book appears on their reading list my feeling is it would because the information therein has some relevance to the people who belong to this organization and its not to help cure themselves.

You must be referring to this post:

A quick Googling found that "Children's sexual encounters with adults" is used by NAMBLA to defend their position. I'm not sure if this is one of the books in question.

He did not provide a link to prove this assertion. And that's not the same thing as your "possibility that such books are used by paedophiles as training manuals."

But you know what, Steve? It still doesn't prove the "pro-pedophilia" claim, and I will tell you why.

When I was debating White Nationalists on Stormfront, they continually used FBI crime statistics "to defend their position."

Now if someone criticized objective crime statistics as "pro-Nazi" because of this, that would be pretty bizarre, right?

And if someone criticized the FBI for publishing objective crime statistics, that would be even stranger, right?

And then if they tried to climb even higher and tried to pin the FBI Director as "pro-Nazi" because White Nationalists use crime statistics "to defend their position", they would be entering the realm of insanity, if not libel, yes?

Yes this is true. Are we talking about the Prometheus Bullough edited title?

Yes.

If this title was recommended by NAMBLA and for professionals working in abuse prevention(and by whom was it thus recommended?) and law enforcement involving victims one, can presume it has information of value for both.

Exactly. Just like FBI crime statistics has value for both racists and anti-racists.

And I have provided evidence that at least the anti-pedophilia side cites Children's Sexual Encounters With Adults as recommended reading.

And now I will do your part for you and show where pedophiles recommend the same book:

SELECTED READINGS ON MAN/BOY LOVE
For a current listing of publications and
periodicals available from NAMBLA, write
to: NAMBLA Info, P.O. Box 174, Dept. RR
Midtown Station, New York, N.Y. 10018.

A long list follows, which includes:

Children's Sexual Encounters With Adults by C.K. Li, D.J. West & T.P.
Woodhouse. Gerald Duckworth & Co., London, 1990.

Queer Resources Directory

 

[CFLarsen]

Bump for Steve.