[Moderated Thread] CFLarsen's and SteveGrenard's Pedophilia Thread

[Luke T.]

You think the media would not have sniffed this a long time ago? That's one hell of a story, isn't it?

The Washington Times report said, "Dr. Money once gave an interview to PAIDIKA – the Journal of Paedophilia, an 'academic' publication that advocates adult sex with children alongside ads for the North American Man-Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) and other pro-pedophilia groups. He told PAIDIKA that a 'relationship' that is 'totally mutual' between a boy of 10 or 11 and an adult male 'would not [be] pathological in any way.' "

http://www.conservativemonitor.com/society03/7.shtml

 

[CFLarsen]

http://www.conservativemonitor.com/society03/7.shtml

...and?

 

[Luke T.]

Apparently John Money got some very bad press from none other than PBS.

There's even a book about him and how he botched things up for one kid.

Much of her pain is caused by Dr. Money, who is presented as a villainous medical man attempting to coerce an unwilling child to submit to numerous unpleasant treatments.
Reading over interviews and reports of decisions made by this doctor, it's difficult to contain anger at the widespread results of his insistence that natural-born gender can be altered with little more than willpower and hormone treatments.

Once you know what to look for, he's all over the place in the media.

And none of it is flattering to him.

 

[Luke T.]

But when Money released his book, Man and Woman, Boy and Girl in 1972, he portrayed Brenda’s sex-change operation as a resounding success. The book reviewer at the liberal New York Times wrote approvingly: “if you tell a boy he is a girl, and raise him as one, he will want to do feminine things.”

Feminists were elated. They needed to prove that women were just as determined as men to ascend the corporate ladder. Women just needed to overcome the oppressive conditioning of patriarchal society. And Money’s research was just the ticket.

Meanwhile things in Winnipeg went from bad to worse. When Brenda reached puberty and her voice deepened, the folly of the charade could no longer be denied. About to undergo her annual breast exam one day, Brenda refused to disrobe. When asked by the doctor, “Do you want to be a girl or not?,” she defiantly answered “No!”

Brenda’s parents knew the time had come to tell her the truth.

Brenda immediately reverted to her male identity. Choosing the name David, he underwent penile reconstructive surgery. In 1990, David put the past behind him when he and Jane Anne Fontane tied the knot.

During all these years, John Money was the toast of the town. He was hailed as the world’s leading expert on sex reassignment. Media interviews, professional awards, and NIH grants – all were showered on him. After all, he had proven that gender identity is a product of nurture, not nature.

He just didn’t bother to tell anyone that Brenda was no longer a she.

John Money’s world began to collapse in 1997 when a journal article finally revealed the truth of his ill-fated experiment. Money could only sputter, “It’s part of the anti-feminist movement.”

Canadian Children's Rights Council.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Oddly enough, I'm largely familiar with the curious case of Kaspar Hauser; I fail, however, to understand any connection beyond name to this "Kaspar Hauser Syndrome".

Kaspar Hauser was a mentally retarded German boy who was kept locked away by his family until they released him at puberty.

This was some 200years ago. Various myths and theories surround his existence although in reality Kaspar Hauser was not at all unusual save for his
retardation which even then was not unusual nor is it that uncommon today. Dr. Money's thesis is that had Kaspar been kept in a family that applied affectionate stimulation of the skin senses (-masturbation ... see above posts by Luke delineating his interest on the subject) he would have developed normally. Dr. Money recommends that children receive this treatment from an early age to prevent this and if biological families are remiss in doing this then such children should be removed and placed in homes of (paedophiles) adults who will. This is the thesis of the Prometheus book by John Money titled Kaspar Hauser-Psychosocial Dwarfism. Dr. Money attempted to apply his refutable logic on society and in particular social and child care workers and family court judges and agencies involved in providing care for such children.

I maintain that patting a child on the head, tummy or back or hugging them is what is required or kissing on normal places such as the cheeks by a PARENT. Adults applying masturbatory procedures to such children is not only paedophilia it is highly destructive to the normal development of such children. Kinsey along with Money and Bullough were very interested in advancing their theories and wanted to experiment on children using these techniques and may have in fact done so.

As the Hauser case is 200 years old and since there are numerous stories concocted around it Dr. Money's opinions are just that, opinions, but they insidiously push his agenda which is condoning and justifying paedophilia as a therapeutic modality that is necessary to insure normal mental development.

As stated previously two hundred years ago the causes of mental retardation were scientifically undetermined. Today we know that the problem occurs with mishaps at birth such as neonatal asphyxia no doubt very common 200 years ago, also with an established and well defined set of chromosoal or genetic abnormalities and that a variant of this could also be related to the absence of iodine or food containing iodine (e.g. s/w fish) in the diet of the mother during fetal development. The last resulted in the legal addition of iodine to ordinary table salt.

This then, for about the 6th time, is why this particular Prometheus Book justifies and condones paedophilia, and does so in a particularly heinous way.

 

[CFLarsen]

Once you know what to look for, he's all over the place in the media.

And none of it is flattering to him.

And yet, 55 years at Johns Hopkins. No "Dateline". No exposure on NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN.

Sorry, Luke: It doesn't wash. A pedophile professor, determining what treatment pedophiles should get? That's better than the death of Princess Diana.

Kaspar Hauser was a mentally retarded German boy who was kept locked away by his family until they released him at puberty.

This was some 200years ago. Various myths and theories surround his existence although in reality Kaspar Hauser was not at all unusual save for his retardation which even then was not unusual nor is it that uncommon today.

Not at all unusual? Steve, Kaspar Hauser was kept in total solitude for the first 16 years of his life. He received none of the usual, expected and needed, parental attention, care and love that children usually get.

There is no evidence that Kaspar Hauser was retarded. During the time when he was cared for, he definitely developed skills that you would not expect from a retarded person.

To use a child so cruelly abandoned to get back at skeptics is so incredibly low.

Dr. Money's thesis is that had Kaspar been kept in a family that applied affectionate stimulation of the skin senses (-masturbation ... see above posts by Luke delineating his interest on the subject) he would have developed normally. Dr. Money recommends that children receive this treatment from an early age to prevent this and if biological families are remiss in doing this then such children should be removed and placed in homes of (paedophiles) adults who will. This is the thesis of the Prometheus book by John Money titled Kaspar Hauser-Psychosocial Dwarfism. Dr. Money attempted to apply his refutable logic on society and in particular social and child care workers and family court judges and agencies involved in providing care for such children.

What?? Where on Earth do you see that?? This is very close to libel, Steve. You are smearing the reputation of a dead man.

I maintain that patting a child on the head, tummy or back or hugging them is what is required or kissing on normal places such as the cheeks by a PARENT.

Foster parents can't touch the children in their care?

Adults applying masturbatory procedures to such children is not only paedophilia it is highly destructive to the normal development of such children. Kinsey along with Money and Bullough were very interested in advancing their theories and wanted to experiment on children using these techniques and may have in fact done so.

What are these "masturbatory procedures"?? Who are advocating them??

Steve, you need to provide evidence of these claims. This has gone beyond mere accusation of skeptics. This is nuts.

As the Hauser case is 200 years old and since there are numerous stories concocted around it Dr. Money's opinions are just that, opinions, but they insidiously push his agenda which is condoning and justifying paedophilia as a therapeutic modality that is necessary to insure normal mental development.

You have not been able to provide evidence of this. Instead, your accusations become more and more outrageous.

As stated previously two hundred years ago the causes of mental retardation were scientifically undetermined. Today we know that the problem occurs with mishaps at birth such as neonatal asphyxia no doubt very common 200 years ago, also with an established and well defined set of chromosoal or genetic abnormalities and that a variant of this could also be related to the absence of iodine or food containing iodine (e.g. s/w fish) in the diet of the mother during fetal development. The last resulted in the legal addition of iodine to ordinary table salt.

This has nothing to do with your claims. Stop talking nonsense and start providing evidence of your - now many - claims.

This then, for about the 6th time, is why this particular Prometheus Book justifies and condones paedophilia, and does so in a particularly heinous way.

I'm sorry, Steve, but throwing out more and more outrageous claims does not constitute evidence. And answer the questions.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Have a nice day Claus .....

Senator Reed: Frankly, Dr. Money, I find what you are proposing reprehensible and immoral. It sounds to me like you are saying we should devote tax dollars to studying masturbation in children.

U.S. Surgeon General
Credentials: Professor emeritus of medical psychology and pediatrics. For almost 50 years, Money has studied the science of sexology. His numerous books include Reinterpreting the Unspeakable (Continuum, 1994), on how to do a sexological investigation, and he is noted for the eye catching titles of some of his papers and talks, including a speech delivered at Hopkins in 1993 titled "Honk if You Masturbate."
[Partial transcript of a Senate hearing, held July 1, 1997, on the establishment of a controversial new branch of the National Institutes of Health, to be called the Institute on Sexological Health]

 

[SteveGrenard]

I resent being called a liar when I have repeatedly provided documented evidence of the existence of these books. Stop lying about me lying and face up to reality. This is typical of your ad hominem way of dealing with the truth which you cannot face or argue any other way. It is sad, particularly on such a vital and emotional topic that you remain resistent to the truth even if it stares you in the face. You have been reminded of the need to attack the argument and not the person. Please figure out what that means.


Once again and for I dont know how many times, I offer the following in response to Claus requestnfor Prometheus titles justifying paedophilia, This from from Bullough's vita, Part 1, April, 2006:

OTHER BOOKS WHICH I ("I" being Vern Bullough) HAVE EDITED IN MY PROMETHEUS SERIES:

Robert Baker and Frederick Elliston. Philosophy and Sex.

Philip Cauthery and Andrew Stanway, The Complete Guide to Sexual Fulfillment.

David Copp and Susan Wendell. Pornography and Censorship.

Marsh a Dorman and Diane Klein. How to Stay Two When Baby Makes Three.

Mark Futterman, Dancing Naked in the Material World

Sol Gordon. Seduction Lines Heard 'Round the World.

Doris B. Hammond. My Parents Never Had Sex.

Richard Y. Handy. Male Sexuality and the Challenge of Healing Impotence

Jon Huer. Art, Beauty, and Pornography.

Lester Kirkendall and Arthur E. Gravatt. Marriage and Family in the Year 2020.

Gerald Larue, Sex and the Bible.

C.K. Li, D. J. West, and T. P. Woodhouse, Sexual Encouters with Adults

(note: correct title should be Children's Encounters with Adults but this seems to be missing here unless it is another book.)


Mark Matthews, The Horseman This deals with the joy of sexual relationships with horses.

John Money, Destroying Angel.

John Money, Lovemaps.

John Money, Venuses Penuses:
Sexology, Sexosophy and Exigency Theory.

John Money, Armed Robbery Orgasm

John Money and Margaret Lamacz. Vandalized Love Maps

Ira Reiss, An End to Shame.

Patrick Riley, The X Rated Videotape Star Index, 1994. kiddie porn listed

Robert Rimmer and Patrick Riley, The X Rated Videotpe Guide IVkiddie porn listed

"Sir" John, The Q Letters: True Stories of Sadomasochism

Richard Taylor, Having Love Affairs.

Anthony Walsh and Grace J. Walsh,
Vive la Difference

John Wright, Survival Strategies for Couples

Russell Vannoy. Sex Without Love.

I add the Kaspar Hauser book though Bullough isn't credited with editing it.

 

[CFLarsen]

Have a nice day Claus .....

Once again, you demonstrate your ability to selectively quote people in order to support your agenda.

Dr. Money: The new National Institute on Sexological Health will study many things such as what treatment works best for sexological disorders. But it will first devote attention to what promotes sexual health in children. What is the role of sexual rehearsal play in normal childhood? What is the outcome of punishing children for masturbating or for "rehearsing" sex with a friend? People who study young animals report that sexual rehearsal play is widespread. Young monkeys, for example, attempt a mounting position. At first they don't get it right, and over time, they get it sorted out. But if you rear animals deprived of the opportunity to rehearse sex, they don't develop properly. If we are brutal and punish children for normal behavioral development, perhaps we will produce brutal--or at least, maladjusted--adults.

Senator Reed: Frankly, Dr. Money, I find what you are proposing reprehensible and immoral. It sounds to me like you are saying we should devote tax dollars to studying masturbation in children.

Dr. Money: More than study it, Senator. We really ought to rehabilitate masturbation as good for you. In the era of AIDS, masturbation may be the one way of achieving truly safe sex.
Source

Do take your time to link to the sources you want to point to.

This has nothing to do with your claims that Money is advocating pedophilia. But, since you brought it up:

Senator Reed angrily leaves the Senate chamber in order to activate phone banks for a public uprising of moral outrage.

Senator McGillacuddy: So what will your institute do to straighten out the mixed messages? What do you think is the "right" message?

Dr. Money: Before we can answer that question, it would be wise to gather facts and figures on kids who were educated under a variety of sex attitudes. For example, Sweden has a history of being out in the open in teaching about sex. In contrast, here, things are mentioned without mentioning them. We could compare the different outcomes in Sweden versus the United States versus maybe Japan. Instead of just guessing, we'd be on firm ground.

This is exactly what I have been saying: We cannot shy away from scientific research, not even into matters we find immoral or reprehensible.

U.S. Surgeon General
Credentials: Professor emeritus of medical psychology and pediatrics. For almost 50 years, Money has studied the science of sexology. His numerous books include Reinterpreting the Unspeakable (Continuum, 1994), on how to do a sexological investigation, and he is noted for the eye catching titles of some of his papers and talks, including a speech delivered at Hopkins in 1993 titled "Honk if You Masturbate."
[Partial transcript of a Senate hearing, held July 1, 1997, on the establishment of a controversial new branch of the National Institutes of Health, to be called the Institute on Sexological Health]

Again, this has nothing to do with your claims that Money is advocating pedophilia.

Once again and for I dont know how many times, I offer the following in response to Claus requestnfor Prometheus titles justifying paedophilia, This time I have bold faced the relevant titles. This from from Bullough's vita, Part 1, April, 2006:

I add the Kaspar Hauser book though Bullough isn't credited with editing it.

I don't care how many times you post this list. It does not support your claims.

Please present evidence of your by now many claims. Answer the questions. Repeated postings of irrelevancies and presenting more and more outrageous claims does not help your case.

 

[CFLarsen]

I resent being called a liar when I have repeatedly provided documented evidence of the existence of these books. Stop lying about me lying and face up to reality. This is typical of your ad hominem way of dealing with the truth which you cannot face or argue any other way. It is sad, particularly on such a vital and emotional topic that you remain resistent to the truth even if it stares you in the face. You have been reminded of the need to attack the argument and not the person. Please figure out what that means.

If you don't want to be called a liar, stop telling falsehoods.

You have not repeatedly presented evidence of the existence of these books. That is a fact, Steve.

If you feel I have attacked your person, I urge you to report me. I await the response from the Mod Squad.

 

[Luke T.]

Sorry, Luke: It doesn't wash. A pedophile professor, determining what treatment pedophiles should get? That's better than the death of Princess Diana.

I think you might be reading too quickly.

Money said that men having sex with boys was okay with him as long as it was a mutually consenting relationship.

Money allowed his patients to continue to molest their victims while he was treating them, and he refused to alert the authorities of their ongoing crimes.

Money was directly responsible for the physical and emotional destruction of a child. And with the weight of the Johns Hopkins label behind him supporting his maniacal plan, other children were similarly victimized.

A monster in a lab coat.

 

[SteveGrenard]

It is not merely good enough for you to judge someone is a liar and end it at that but this is what you do consistently. Please provide proof that I have not provided the basis for a thread that is over 270 posts (just this one) and thousands of views by presenting evidence of:

1. The existence of pornographic titles published by Prometheus including books which justify and condone paedophilia, bestiality, sadomasochism,
prostitution, pornography .... while presenting themselves as a scholarly publishing company of high repute. And publishing books by authors such as John Money and Vern Bullough whose views have now been widely revealed here.

2. The existence of the late Vern Bullough, a ten year veteran of Paidika and what Paidika is.

3. The existence of the late Vern Bullough, a Fellow of CSICOP.

4. The existence of Prometheus Books whose President is Paul Kurtz and the existence of CSICOP whose President is also Paul Kurtz.

5. The existence of Vern Bullough, an editor of
Prometheus Books (see #1 and 4) dealing with bestiality, paedophilia, and pornography ......

I almost fell off my chair when you decided that using quotes selectively is somehow wrong. There is so much rhetoric attached to this subject it is necessary to do that precisely to cut through it all and present the material relevant to the question. As someone who almost never does any
quoting of sources other than to parrot and try and to turn around what oponents say, this is a concept that may be foreign to you so I understand that.

 

[CFLarsen]

I think you might be reading too quickly.

Money said that men having sex with boys was okay with him as long as it was a mutually consenting relationship.

Money allowed his patients to continue to molest their victims while he was treating them, and he refused to alert the authorities of their ongoing crimes.

Money was directly responsible for the physical and emotional destruction of a child. And with the weight of the Johns Hopkins label behind him supporting his maniacal plan, other children were similarly victimized.

A monster in a lab coat.

OK. Let's assume you are right. Now, what?

It is not merely good enough for you to judge someone is a liar and end it at that but this is what you do consistently. Please provide proof that I have not provided the basis for a thread that is over 270 posts (just this one) and thousands of views by presenting evidence of:

1. The existence of pornographic titles published by Prometheus including books which justify and condone paedophilia, bestiality, sadomasochism,
prostitution, pornography .... while presenting themselves as a scholarly publishing company of high repute. And publishing books by authors such as John Money and Vern Bullough whose views have now been widely revealed here.

2. The existence of the late Vern Bullough, a ten year veteran of Paidika and what Paidika is.

3. The existence of the late Vern Bullough, a Fellow of CSICOP.

4. The existence of Prometheus Books whose President is Paul Kurtz and the existence of CSICOP whose President is also Paul Kurtz.

I almost fell off my chair when you decided that using quotes selectively is somehow wrong. There is so much rhetoric attached to this subject it is necessary to do that precisely to cut through it all and present the material relevant to the question. As someone who almost never does any
quoting of sources other than to parrot and try and to turn around what oponents say, this is a concept that may be foreign to you so I understand that.

Your red herrings won't work. It is not my job to prove you wrong, it is your job to prove yourself right.

Please present evidence of your by now many claims. Answer the questions.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Ah, now they'e red herrings. All this work it is reduced to red herrings. Geez, thanks.

I guess that'll show us not to bother in the future.

 

[HarryKeogh]

I think you might be reading too quickly.

Money said that men having sex with boys was okay with him as long as it was a mutually consenting relationship.

Money allowed his patients to continue to molest their victims while he was treating them, and he refused to alert the authorities of their ongoing crimes.

Money was directly responsible for the physical and emotional destruction of a child. And with the weight of the Johns Hopkins label behind him supporting his maniacal plan, other children were similarly victimized.

A monster in a lab coat.

I think this should be stressed more...

Dr. Money, for years, covered up a botched gender experiment possibly at the cost of a boy's sanity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

Money's ideas relating to gender and gender identity formation have come under criticism. Money maintained that a child's gender identity is fluid up to a certain age, after which this gender would become consolidated and more-or-less immutable. This theory was applied in the case of a male child, David Reimer, whose penis was destroyed due to a botched circumcision. This became to be known as the John/Joan case. [4] The child was subsequently sexually reassigned as female. However, even though David Reimer was raised as a girl and never knew his early history, he behaved in a masculine way appropriate to a boy while he was a young child. Later attempts to socialize him as a girl failed. Money knew this yet never revealed this information for years. He was eventually exposed in 1997 in a paper authored by Milton Diamond and Keith Sigmundson. [5] His decision to "cover up" the facts of the case caused Money great difficulty in the medical community.

David Reimer went on to commit suicide. He was a guinea pig for an incredibly bizarre experiment.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Luke: I think you might be reading too quickly.

Or maybe selectively. Or maybe not at all.

 

[Luke T.]

Steve, I don't see where you show Prometheus carries pro-pedophilia material. And even if they did, I am not sure what that would mean.

After all, Amazon carries Mein Kampf and The Turner Diaries. Doesn't make them Nazis.

What is Prometheus' mission? To sell books, or to promote some cause?

If their "mission" is to promote education along the lines of JREF, then yeah, carrying a Big Book O'Porn on their website wouldn't make much sense. Sure, sure, porn movies are "training films", right guys?

But seriously, I am having a hard time seeing what the problem is with carrying a porn catalog on their site. I don't see any evidence, so far, that they carry a pro-pedophilia book.

They might carry books authored by maniacs like John Money, but I still am not sure what you think that is supposed to mean to us.

 

[CFLarsen]

Ah, now they'e red herrings. All this work it is reduced to red herrings. Geez, thanks.

I guess that'll show us not to bother in the future.

Then, you will have no problems bothering with showing evidence of your claims and answering the questions.

 

[SteveGrenard]

I agree it doesn't necessarily have to mean anything but it could mean the President of Prometheus and the President of CSICOP have the same attitude toward this type of literature? Oh, wait a minute, they're the same person. You think that person divided his brain into a Prometheus half and a CSICOP half? Possible I guess. Oh, wait a minute, the editor of the sex books section at Prometheus is what, a CSICOP Fellow? Nothing wrong with that I suppose, no worse than having a self-admitted druggie on board either. Too bad Randi, Shermer, Penn & Teller or Alan Alda aren't good enough to make that honor .... or maybe they are smart enough not to want it.

You're right. I am just a prude. Larsen is right I am a prude. I will get a prude sign made up and place it on my desk. But expect me to be skeptical of these kinds of interlockingrelationships and question the motives of the people involved. I may be a prude but that doesn't mean I have to support them blindly or at all.

Luke: Steve, I don't see where you show Prometheus carries pro-pedophilia material. And even if they did, I am not sure what that would mean.

I am sorry you don't see Children's Encounters with Adults or Kaspar Hauser as pro-paedophilia tomes. Or the Horseman as a pro-bestiality book or Q as a book extolling the pleasures of sado-masochism. Or a video catalogue that publicizes and reviews adult and kiddie porn. That's your choice.

And by the way, I am not sure what it means either. I don't always look for the meaning in things. Some things just are but if you have any ideas let us know.

 

[Luke T.]

I agree it doesn't necessarily have to mean anything but it could mean the President of Prometheus and the President of CSICOP have the same attitude toward this type of literature? Oh, wait a minute, they're the same person. You think that person divided his brain into a Prometheus half and a CSICOP half? Possible I guess. Oh, wait a minute, the editor of the sex books section at Prometheus is what, a CSICOP Fellow? Nothing wrong with that I suppose, no worse than having a self-admitted druggie on board either. Too bad Randi, Shermer, Penn & Teller or Alan Alda aren't good enough to make that honor .... or maybe they are smart enough not to want it.

Alan Alda?

You're right. I am just a prude. Larsen is right I am a prude. I will get a prude sign made up and place it on my desk. But expect me to be skeptical of these kinds of interlockingrelationships and question the motives of the people involved. I may be a prude but that doesn't mean I have to support them blindly or at all.

Take it easy, Steve. I am just trying to understand what it is you are getting at. It's my fault for not focusing that much on the discussion about Prometheus up to this point. I am not feeling antagonistic toward you.

I am sorry you don't see Children's Encounters with Adults or Kaspar Hauser as pro-paedophilia tomes. Or the Horseman as a pro-bestiality book or Q as a book extolling the pleasures of sado-masochism. Or a video catalogue that publicizes and reviews adult and kiddie porn. That's your choice.

I am wondering about something. In a previous post you quoted "OTHER BOOKS WHICH I ("I" being Vern Bullough) HAVE EDITED IN MY PROMETHEUS SERIES:"

In that quote, the fonts change. So I can't tell where it says, for example, "Robert Rimmer and Patrick Riley, The X Rated Videotpe Guide IV kiddie porn listed", if it is Vern Bullough who said "kiddie porn listed" or if you just added that part in.

If you added that part in, how do you know kiddie porn is listed in the Guide?

And by the way, I am not sure what it means either. I don't always look for the meaning in things. Some things just are but if you have any ideas let us know.

Can we just drop the adult sex and adult deviant sex components of your problems with Prometheus for a little bit? It's just muddying the water, in my opinion. Let's stick to something that just about everyone can agree is bad: pedophilia.

And I have not yet formed a solid opinion of Children's Encounters with Adults. I'll have to look into it further. And I will. Promise.