Islam in Britain - One Year Later

[Mephisto]

Someone let me know when the immoderate pope issues a papal bull saying Jesus wants us to slay unbelievers, homosexuals, and adulterers.

Has, "someone let you know," that all Muslim Imams have issued a call for Muslims throughout the UK to act similarly?

 

[Mephisto]

Read what I asked for, again: "Someone let me know when the immoderate pope issues a papal bull saying Jesus wants us to slay unbelievers, homosexuals, and adulterers."

I'll make it even easier for you. Show me where Jesus said anywhere he wants us to slay unbelievers, homosexuals, and adulterers.

Here some poisoned well-water for you . . .

Can you show me where Jesus wants us to invade a sovereign country, that it's alright to torture other human beings, or hold them prisoner without hope for a trial, or where he says homosexuality is evil?

 

[Dcdrac]

Philips is the Guardian's answer to Ann Coulter. For her everything is to do with multiculturalism, which is just another way of saying "not being Catholic enough".

Madcap Mel writes for the DDSaily Mail now she used to write fulltime for the Guardian.

My favouroite in the Daily Snail is Christopher Hitchens his rants have me in stitches.

 

[Mephisto]

imo, the problem is the lack of willingness of some Muslims to meld into a society or culture. They desire an entire culture to adopt their ways instead. The response of every western culture in which they make that desire known is basically going to be "tough [rule8]." Regardless of any economic situation that culture clash is going to cause problems.

Here's some poisoned well-water for you too.

Funny, but the same claims (r.e. not willing to meld) were once made about Native-Americans, and are currently being made about Mexican immigrants, yet no one worries about the Amish, or Asians in Chinatowns all over the country. And you say "they desire" that we adopt their ways, as though you've been approached by Muslims asking you to give up pork and embrace Mohammed. Can you prove that Muslims want everyone to become Muslim?

That's where Christianity and Islam part ways as well. Christianity learned long ago to adapt to cultural changes, albeit that change often comes slowly. Islam remains inflexible and that attitude is bound to cause even more problems in the future.

So . . . Catholics can now use condoms? Baptists no longer want prayer in the schools? Christians everywhere realize that over-population is starving the less-fortunate, evolution is nature and God loves homosexuals as much as everyone else? Oh, I see . . . you said the change comes slowly. Perhaps a more tolerant approach on the part of alarmists might relieve their inflexibility?

Maybe the answer is to teach Muslims to adapt, if that's even possible? Either that or cross your fingers and hope for the best.

I think you'd have your hands full teaching your American neighbor next door that evolution=science, creationism=BS. I also find it condescending that you apparently believe that it's near impossible to teach Muslims to adapt. You, and BPSCG are making the classic errors of misunderestimating your perceived enemies, lumping everyone in a cultural/religious group into one easy-to-manage (let God sort them out) package and sounding just as intolerant as the people you are against.

 

[Apollyon]

Here's some poisoned well-water for you too.

Funny, but the same claims (r.e. not willing to meld) were once made about Native-Americans, and are currently being made about Mexican immigrants, yet no one worries about the Amish, or Asians in Chinatowns all over the country. And you say "they desire" that we adopt their ways, as though you've been approached by Muslims asking you to give up pork and embrace Mohammed. Can you prove that Muslims want everyone to become Muslim?

So the Muslims were there in Britian first and those nasty Anglo-Saxons came and took it away from them?

Interesting. Care to link some evidence of this intruiging bit of history I wasn't aware of? I'd be grateful to read about it.

One thing I can prove is that a lot of Muslims in the religious heirarchy of Islam want the US and other countries to adopt Muslim ways and even sharia as a basis for their laws because they have publicly expressed those sentiments. So my claim is not exactly off base unless you can demonstrate a Muslim call to blend in and adopt the various cultures they immigrate to. If they had a penchant for blending in, we wouldn't be having so many problems at this point with Muslims, now would we?

So . . . Catholics can now use condoms? Baptists no longer want prayer in the schools? Christians everywhere realize that over-population is starving the less-fortunate, evolution is nature and God loves homosexuals as much as everyone else? Oh, I see . . . you said the change comes slowly. Perhaps a more tolerant approach on the part of alarmists might relieve their inflexibility?

You do realize the some Christian denominations accept homosexuals, right? How many Muslim faiths have had a change of heart and have decided it's just not proper to execute them under sharia law?

I think you'd have your hands full teaching your American neighbor next door that evolution=science, creationism=BS. I also find it condescending that you apparently believe that it's near impossible to teach Muslims to adapt. You, and BPSCG are making the classic errors of misunderestimating your perceived enemies, lumping everyone in a cultural/religious group into one easy-to-manage (let God sort them out) package and sounding just as intolerant as the people you are against.

Ahhh. Gross generalizations. Hold them dear to your heart and lump all those "American neighbor(s)" together while preaching about condescention and intolerance.

And now you are admitting that Muslims are intolerant?

 

[Darat]

So the Muslims were there in Britian first and those nasty Anglo-Saxons came and took it away from them?

Well since the Anglo-Saxons took it from...... sorry but couldn't help myself.

One thing I can prove is that a lot of Muslims in the religious heirarchy of Islam ...snip...

"Muslim hierarchy of Islam" - I didn't think there was one or rather nothing like there is in say Roman Catholicism i.e a formal organised hierarchal structure.

...snip..
want the US and other countries to adopt Muslim ways and even sharia as a basis for their laws because they have publicly expressed those sentiments.
...snip...

This has been mentioned before but we have the head of the Catholic Church in the UK seeking to change UK law so that it is in line with his religious laws. I think this is common to all the major religions e.g. want the rest of the world to live by their rules.

So my claim is not exactly off base unless you can demonstrate a Muslim call to blend in and adopt the various cultures they immigrate to.

According to some Muslims this is in fact part of the Islamic faith.

If they had a penchant for blending in, we wouldn't be having so many problems at this point with Muslims, now would we?

This doesn't follow. Most Muslim immigration int for instance the UK has taken place in the last 40 years -that is hardly anytime in terms of past immigrations for "blending" in. And I do find something quite strange about this attitude in that it doesn't seem to be applied to other groups (today at least) so I don't hear people in the UK complaining in the same way about "China Town" in Manchester, as they do about a section of a town that is predominately (but in fact is probably still less then 50%) inhabited by British people who are Muslims. It would appear that Muslims are to held to a different standard then what we hold other "immigrant" groups to.

You do realize the some Christian denominations accept homosexuals, right? How many Muslim faiths have had a change of heart and have decided it's just not proper to execute them under sharia law?

...snip...

Sharia law doesn't equal Islamic faith, Muslims throughout the world argue over what their faith says, just like Christians and Jews do.

And I mentioned this before:

...snip...

However since the majority of Muslims live in secular states even when they form the vast majority of the population then I think a reasonable conclusion is that the majority of Muslims don't believe this interpretation of their faith. (I think this is correct I've done a rough and ready calculation based on the data here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country)

...snip...

 

[Elind]

It's odd how when the actual numbers don't look pretty people begin citing percentages instead.

Why is it odd? It is highly informative in terms of understanding the issues.

We hear a lot of talk about small minorities, discrimination, targeted suspicion, profiling and so on. Whatever the issue, race, religion, social status, Christianity or Islam; all these potential "discriminations" would be irrelevant if your logic is followed, since in most cases they only involve a minority group.

However when a minority group shows that they have a very significant proportion, in some regards approaching a majority of their own, that discriminate against the majority by wanting to kill them, then you say that is irrelevant because they are as a whole a small minority?

Ever hear the term PC? Sounds like you have a bad case of it.

 

[Apollyon]

Well since the Anglo-Saxons took it from...... sorry but couldn't help myself.

The same argument could be made concerning the American Indian, actually, since there were allegedly multiple migrations.

"Muslim hierarchy of Islam" - I didn't think there was one or rather nothing like there is in say Roman Catholicism i.e a formal organised hierarchal structure.

It's quite a bit more disparate and far less formally organized than the RCC hierarchy, but there is a hierarchy nonetheless. An example would be the Shia in Iraq where there are imams in each mosque as well as someone like al-Sistani who is pretty much considered the de facto religious leader of Shia Islam in Iraq.

This has been mentioned before but we have the head of te hCathlic Church in the UK seeking to change UK law so that it is in line with his religious laws. I think this is common to all the major relgions e.g. want the rest of the world to live by their rules.

Understood. Believe me, I don't just pick on Islam. I'm dubious about all religions that want to impose their will. It's just that Muslims seem the most vociferous about this at the moment and are therefore my focus at the moment as well.

Accorign to some Muslims this is in fact part of the Islamic faith.

Yes, and supposedly it should apply to all Muslims. Unfortunately it's not something that has attained any widespread practice.

This doesn't follow. Most Muslim immigration int for instance the UK has taken place in the last 40 years -that is hardly anytime in terms of past immigrations for "blending" in. And I do find something quite strange about this attitude in that it doesn't seem to be applied to other groups (today at least) so I don't hear people in the UK complaining in the same way about "China Town" in Manchester, as they do about a section of a town that is predominately (but in fact is probably still less then 50%) inhabited by British people who are Muslims. It would appear that Muslims are to held to a different standard then what we hold other "immigrant" groups to.

How many Chinese in Britian profess to wanting to join terrorist groups to affect change to coincide with their beliefs?

If arguments to equivalence are going to be made, they need to be argued with equivalent rationales.

 

[Apollyon]

Why is it odd? It is highly informative in terms of understanding the issues.

We hear a lot of talk about small minorities, discrimination, targeted suspicion, profiling and so on. Whatever the issue, race, religion, social status, Christianity or Islam; all these potential "discriminations" would be irrelevant if your logic is followed, since in most cases they only involve a minority group.

However when a minority group shows that they have a very significant proportion, in some regards approaching a majority of their own, that discriminate against the majority by wanting to kill them, then you say that is irrelevant because they are as a whole a small minority?

Ever hear the term PC? Sounds like you have a bad case of it.

I'm not sure you understood the intent of my statement.

Citing percentages instead of numbers tends, imo, to be a method of marginalizing the issue. Saying 'Well, it's on a small percentage of a minority' kind of hides the fact that 16,000 Muslims in Britian profess the desire to join a terrorist group. No matter how someone wants to parse the numbers, 16,000 potential terrorists is a LOT. That number is not insignificant and reducing it to a percentage does not make it insignificant.

I'm not arguing PCness. Im arguing precisely against it. And speaking of being PC, I notice that whenever the subject of Muslims is brought up that it's seemingly considered politicaly incorrect to speak of their potenital for bad behaviour. A flood of people rush to their defense. Anyone who does say something perceived as bad about Muslims is almost instantaneously typified as a knucle-dragging bigot simply by virtue of attempting to suggest that some Muslims are capable of doing bad things. But, Christians? Well those bad, bad Christians are fair game. Let the bashing begin. (btw, I'm agnostic and have no affiliation with any religion whatsoever.)

To me, THAT is PC and is a common theme on so many forums across the internet.

 

[Tailgater]

I think you'd have your hands full teaching your American neighbor next door that evolution=science, creationism=BS. I also find it condescending that you apparently believe that it's near impossible to teach Muslims to adapt. You, and BPSCG are making the classic errors of misunderestimating your perceived enemies, lumping everyone in a cultural/religious group into one easy-to-manage (let God sort them out) package and sounding just as intolerant as the people you are against.

Talk about a lumping everyone. Unless that was sarcasm. They don't teach creationism in america. At least not in the last 30 years as I have known it.

Most religions do try to push beliefs on others. That's how they grow. And most muslims do it the same as every other religion. However, i can't think of any other minority of a religion that wants to blow us up if we say no. I can probably find an example of some cult or nut group, and we have plenty here, but they are usually isolated and don't have the population to worry about it.

If the pope said kill all muslims and you will go to heaven, all of western civilized world would be in the streets protesting him. Unfortunately, the majority of muslims have a don't ask-don't tell policy toward the "minority" that acts as repersentatives for them. I feel that is the major difference here.

If only 1 out of a 100 people want to be a terrorist, and 1 bomb has the potential to kill hundreds, there is at least cause for concern.

 

[Tailgater]

.....and I know they can organize, because I saw them dancing in the streets of chicagos' muslim/arab area on 9-11 waving their flags. And all over the world.

 

[Darat]

...snip..

It's quite a bit more disparate and far less formally organized than the RCC hierarchy, but there is a hierarchy nonetheless. An example would be the Shia in Iraq where there are imams in each mosque as well as someone like al-Sistani who is pretty much considered the de facto religious leader of Shia Islam in Iraq.

Which is as I understand the structure of Islam.

My point is that if al-Sistani wishes to remove a preacher in a mosque in Bradford there is no formal hierarchy that can make this happen.

Understood. Believe me, I don't just pick on Islam. I'm dubious about all religions that want to impose their will. It's just that Muslims seem the most vociferous about this at the moment and are therefore my focus at the moment as well.

I agree that at the moment we have problems that are definitely "Muslim" in origin (I use speech marks as it's not all Muslims or all of the Islamic faith), and there are some things which are specific to the Muslim faith which I think at least exacerbate the problem.

...snip...
How many Chinese in Britian profess to wanting to join terrorist groups to affect change to coincide with their beliefs?

If arguments to equivalence are going to be made, they need to be argued with equivalent rationales.

Today I suspect very, very few, however back in the Victorian times when we had one of the larger immigrations of Chinese into the UK we have reports of gang trouble, incitement to violence and so on. Which again supports my overall contention that problems with immigration into the UK is nothing new (caveat my comments regarding external influences).

Yes there are some new elements to the current problems, but lets not get confused with what are the new elements and what are the "traditional problems".

 

[Dcdrac]

Look back to the berginning of the 20th century when there was large scale eastern european jewish immigration into the UK, fleeing pograopms and oppression, they were villffied not least by the Daily Mail, accussed of all sorts of crimes including what would now be called terrorism, anytime a so called anarchist group did something it would be blamed on jewish immigrants.

 

[Elind]

So the when the when the head of the catholic church a few weeks ago was banging on about abortion was he not guilty of the same thing?

Partly, yes, but I don't think he was making excuses for those who bomb planned parenthood clinics and employees, nor was he complaining about a war against Catholics.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Unfortunately, the majority of muslims have a don't ask-don't tell policy toward the "minority" that acts as repersentatives for them. I feel that is the major difference here.

How wrong can you get?

 

[Elind]

I'm not sure you understood the intent of my statement.

I think I understand the rest of what you say, as well as the original statement.

There is no doubt that numbers can be manipulated as you suggest and we can find plenty of examples if that is the objective. Here though, we were talking of a particular example, where you say that only, say, 1% of the population (I haven't gone back to the original as I type this) supports a particular view and therefore it is a small minority that can be dealt with without labels that may wrongly rub off on someone else.

I say that if that 1% represents 25% or 50% (depending on the question asked) of a clearly identifiable group of people, who clearly identify themselves as part of that group, then it is the larger percentages that are perfectly rational and meaningful.

The solution for those who don't want that label to be associated with them is to distance themselves in some very obvious way from the others.

That may not seem fair, may result in discrimination at times, and may be unpleasant, but that is how Allah has set things up. Either he is testing the faith of those who believe every infidel is an enemy, or he is testing the faith of those who want tolerance.

 

[andyandy]

That may not seem fair, may result in discrimination at times, and may be unpleasant, but that is how Allah has set things up. Either he is testing the faith of those who believe every infidel is an enemy, or he is testing the faith of those who want tolerance.

Isn't Allah Yahweh? And isn't this discussion better off in the religious section?

 

[Elind]

Isn't Allah Yahweh? And isn't this discussion better off in the religious section?

Be my guest and move that post over there. You have permission to copy mine too if you need something to get you started.

 

[Dr Adequate]

The solution for those who don't want that label to be associated with them is to distance themselves in some very obvious way from the others.

You mean like this?

The Muslim Council of Britain said the bombings were "evil deeds." "The evil people who planned and carried out these series of explosions in London want to demoralize us as a nation and divide us as a people," the group said in a statement. "All of us must unite in helping the police to capture these murderers."

London's Regent's Park Mosque, the largest Muslim cultural center in Europe, also called on British Muslims to help the police find the bombers. *

And like this?

Sir Iqbal Sacranie of the Muslim Council of Britain said he utterly condemned the attacks.

"We are simply appalled and want to express our deepest condolences to the families.

"These terrorists, these evil people want to demoralise us as a nation and divide us.

"All of must unite in helping the police to hunt these murderers down." *

And like this?

In the name of Allah, the all-Merciful, the most Compassionate

A special meeting of imams (leaders) and ulama (scholars) held at the Islamic Cultural Centre, Regents Park, London on 15th July 2005 endorsed the following declaration:

Along with all Londoners and the people of Britain, we are deeply shocked and saddened by the bombing attacks of 7 July 2005 that caused the loss of at least 52 innocent lives, wounded hundreds and disrupted the peace and order of the civic and community life of the metropolis. We regard these acts as utterly criminal, totally reprehensible, and absolutely un-Islamic.

On behalf of our communities and congregations, we express heartfelt sorrow and extend condolences to the families and friends of the victims. We pray for the speedy recovery of the injured. We extend our sympathy to the entire British public, a nation to which we all belong by the Grace of God.

There can never be any excuse for taking an innocent life. The Qur’an clearly declares that killing an innocent person was tantamount to killing all mankind and likewise saving a single life was as if one had saved the life of all mankind. (The Qur’an, Al-Maidah 5:32) This is both a principle and a command.

We are firmly of the view that these killings had absolutely no sanction in Islam, nor is there any justification whatsoever in our noble religion for such evil actions. It is our understanding that those who carried out the bombings in London should in no sense be regarded as martyrs.

It is incumbent upon all of us, Muslims and non-Muslims – to help the authorities with any information that may lead to the planners of last week’s atrocity being brought to justice. The pursuit of justice for the victims of last week’s attacks is an obligation under the faith of Islam. *

And like this?

MWH has been shocked and deeply disturbed by the seemingly orchestrated acts of terror across London this morning. We reiterate our position as wholly and utterly opposed to all acts of terrorism and hold that the perpetrators of this barbaric crime should be sought and brought to justice. The harrowing images of innocent commuters caught up in this tragedy serves to reinforce our will to continue to work against the destructive and dogged determination of terrorist elements. *

And like this?

The members of the MSF, watched with dismay, shock and deep sadness the events that unfolded today in London. As Londoner's, our first thoughts are with those who have been injured or lost their lives and with their families. Following early indications that the blasts this morning are likely to have been a coordinated terrorist attack, the MSF would like to express its total condemnation of such terrible acts and gross violations of the law of humanity. The MSF would like to re-iterate that the true message of Islam is one of Peace, Justice and the love of humanity. Islam holds the sanctity of human life in the highest possible regard and shedding the blood of an innocent person is seen as a most heinous and repulsive crime. The MSF would like to assure the people, police and emergency services of London that regardless of who perpetrated this terrible crime, the Muslim community, who number over 1 million in London, will do its utmost to help in whatever way possible. *

And like this?

Dr. Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, leader of the Muslim Parliament, has condemned the bomb blasts in London which killed over 50 and injured some 700 innocent people. He called the attacks inhuman, mindless and unwarranted. He praised the Londoners for facing this testing time with great courage. He also applauded police and emergency services for the way they reacted to meet the challenge. ‘Our heart goes out to those who have lost or got injured their loved ones in this carnage’, he said. *

And like this?

The ISB extends its deep-felt sympathy to the families of those killed and to all those who have been hurt or wounded in the explosions. The ISB stands in solidarity with the nation. It is absolutely imperative that we all, Muslim or not, as citizens wishing to live together in a secure, civilised society, stand up and fight these acts. ‘This is a time for us all to pull together and heal each other’s wounds. It’s a time to draw close in tenderness but also in outrage. We hope the perpetrators are brought to justice for the utter horror of their attacks at such a critical stage’, commented Dr Munir Ahmed, the President of ISB. *

And like this?

The Islamic Foundation is shocked and horrified at the bomb attacks in London today. We join everyone in condemning such acts of wanton and senseless violence. Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their loved ones at this tragic moment. The Director General, Dr Manazir Ahsan said: "We deplore these barbaric acts and hope that the perpetrators are identified and brought to justice quickly. Our heartfelt condolences go out to all the victims and their families." *

And like this?

Our thoughts, our prayers and condolences go out to all the victims of these terrible terrorist attacks. As citizens and co-workers of this great city, we share the concerns and fears of fellow Londoners. We use the same transport and live and work in the same buildings and any attack is an attack on us all. Islam expressly condemns the use of violence against civilians and innocents. We call on the Muslim community to be fully cooperative in this situation, so we may all live in peace and harmony and continue to make London the vibrant, tolerant and peaceful city it is. Dr. Ahmed Al-Dubayan the Director General of The Islamic Cultural Centre London unequivocally condemns these terrorist attacks and expresses deep condolences to the families, relatives and friends of the victims and urge all Muslims to be unanimous in their strong support of the Government Anti-terrorist programmes. *

That looks like a fairly "obvious" distinction to me, but it seems lost on vicious stupid bigots such as Melanie Phillips --- the lying little twat.

 

[Dcdrac]

That looks like a fairly "obvious" distinction to me, but it seems lost on vicious stupid bigots such as Melanie Phillips --- the lying little twat.[/QUOTE]

She is jsut s self promoting harm doer, i learnt that from her anti MMR campaign, she has done alot of harm through that alone.