[Moderated Thread] CFLarsen's and SteveGrenard's Pedophilia Thread

[Luke T.]

I got it.

In logical, rather than chronological, order:

Why don't you tell the truth Claws ...that you call me that because I am outspokenly opposed to that part of Prometheus' publishing program that includes books that glorify and condone pedophilia, bestiality and other degeneracies? And that sadly this publisher is owned by one of the world's top skeptics and also publishes skeptical books...eh?

You still need to provide evidence of your accusations against Prometheus. What book by Prometheus specifically condones pedophilia? You can post the title without breaking forum rules.

Anyone interested in the Prometheus issue can find them easily enough on the web. On the main page which is the URL for all their pages there is a drop down menu. Find the suggestive categories and knock yourself out by reviewing every title listed therein and then tell me if an upstanding academic publisher such as this isn't off the mark by publishing this material. Or not. Its a matter for separate debate and a derail for which I apologize. It would not have ocurred had not Larsen brought up his mis-perception of my attitude toward this issue.

The way the Prometheus site is structured one cannot link to individual book title pages as every page defaults to the URL for the main page. You must use the drop down menu and branch from there. Larsen knows this but uses it as an excuse to further harass me. In addition I will not violate the rules of this forum by reprinting descriptions of the books in question here including in some cases their titles which are also suggestive and may violate forum policies. Nice try Claus....

anyway, Steve. I went to the Prometheus page. Could you please list the titles that offended you...the ones that promote pedophilia and bestiality.

I can't find them.

Sorry not falling for this. Keep looking. I suggested how to find them. Use the drop down menu, find the relevant categories, and then click on each and every title in each title. You will find them soon enough. This site which does not have separate urls for its sub pages.

If you still can't find them, so be it. Let's see if anyone else has better searching capabilities.

I am afraid I will not be baited into discussing, reviewing or publicizing the titles in question on this forum.

Steve, I asked you to provide evidence of your claim. Please do so:

What book by Prometheus specifically condones pedophilia?

Is everyone on this forum going to start using the "you either see it or you don't" defense?!

anyway, I found Children's Sexual Encounters With Adults which

Presents the findings of two important research projects in which men who admitted to a sexual interest in children were interviewed. The attitudes of these volunteer subjects differed from apprehensive pedophile offenders, challenging some of the generalizations advanced by professionals.

". . . valuable information . . . Read the book, remember the empirical data, and learn from the narratives. . ." - Journal of Sex Research

I'm guessing this is one of the titles you mean but since you won't discuss it on a discussion board I can't know for sure. It seems like a book that presents research on what makes them tick and doesn't condone pedophilia. Well, no point in me going on if it's just going to be a monologue.

It should be a monologue since this is clearly a derail for which I already apologized. However keep perusing the catalogue ... especially the sexual autobiographies. And while I do not object to a clinical literature on the subject of sexual deviance which is the defense for these titles, please tell me how a huge multi volume guide to pornographic videos has any redeeming academic value or what scientific purpose it serves. I am told by a person investigating this matter that it includes titles depicting deviant behavior and reviews these. The editor of this section of the Prometheus catalogue, a former SUNY Buffalo professor who is no longer teaching and has moved to California, was a consultant to Paidika (search the term) for ten years.

You have named this professor to be Vernon Bullogh, and claimed he was a self-admitted pedophile.

Repeated accusations. But no evidence from you.

I'm sorry but this is so disingenuous. If you are not going to derail the thread then take it to PM. If you are then simply name the books. Using the descriptions is not a breach of the rules. You're playing a game. Bottom line, you don't have to respond in this thread. Since you are responding why not simply give out the information? This is just silly.

Steve Grenard is not interested in facts. He is solely interested in dropping these hints and allegations around the Internet, in his ongoing quest to smear skeptics.

A quick Googling found that "Children's sexual encounters with adults" is used by NAMBLA to defend their position. I'm not sure if this is one of the books in question.

This is a Promtheus title and would have to say it is the same book.

Fair enough. Here are the titles of Promtheus Books. These can be linked only by going to their website since they do not seem to have their own URLs for the descriptions but the list below represents a linkthat will take you to a description of the book. I am not saying all of these are objectionnable, pornographic or justifying an illegal behavior such as pedophilia but some of them do. Some, such as the porno video catalogue, is just a catalogue of trashy videos. Such publications by this, of all publishers, is just pathetic.

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A History of X
A Youth in Babylon
Armed Robbery Orgasm
Childhood Phases of Maturity
Children's Sexual Encounters with Adults
Contraception
Crossing Sexual Boundaries
Gender Blending
How I Got Into Sex
Let's Really Make Love
Lovemaps
Overcoming Impotence
Porn 101
Prostitution
S & M
Seducation Lines Heard Round the World and Answers You Can Give
Sex and the Bible
Sexual Attitudes
Sexual Practices and the Medieval Church
Sin, Science, and the Sex Police
Soap, Water and Sex
Solving America's Sexual Crises
Survival Strategies for Couples
The Adam Principle
The Art of Lovemaking
The Breathless Orgasm
The Complete Guide to Sexual Fulfilment
The Destroying Angel
The Frontiers of Sex Research
The Handbook of Forensic Sexology
The Joy of Self-Pleasuring
The Kaspar Hauser Syndrome of Psychosocial Dwarfism
The Politics of Lust
The Science of Love
The Science of Romance
The X-Rated Videotape Guide VII
The X-Rated Videotape Guide VIII
The X-Rated Videotape Star Index II
The X-Rated Videotape Star Index III
Transvestites
Vandalized Lovemaps
Venuses Penuses
Vive La Difference
Women and Prostitution


Sexual Autobiography
Bert & Lori
Dirty Talk
Half Straight
Raw Talent
The Q Letters
Whips and Kisses

Bisexuality and HIV/AIDS
Same-Sex Marriage
The Gay Agenda
The Homosexuality of Men and Women
The Riddle of Man-Manly Love
The Third Pink Book

Which one(s) of these books justify, glorify and condone pedophilia?

 

[webfusion]

I'm really annoyed, the casinos are closed.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

Okay, they are moved. It will look a little odd because of the way the software moves the posts.

 

[Luke T.]

I'm really annoyed, the casinos are closed.

 

[Jocko]

I'm talking about what is considered "normal". Man, woman, in-out, thank-you-ma'am.

Whoah, are you saying you're prepared to explain what "normal sexuality" is? Even Falwell would never be so bold.

By all means, commence. I'd like to see how I rate.

Still waiting, Claus.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Here is a list of CSICOP Fellows along with its URL. Hold this aside for a few hours as there is more to follow.....also see questions at the end.

http://www.csicop.org/about/fellows.html



The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal

* Paul Kurtz, Chairman; professor emeritus of philosophy, State University of New York at Buffalo
* Barry Karr, Executive Director
* Joe Nickell, Senior Research Fellow
* Massimo Polidoro, Research Fellow
* Richard Wiseman, Research Fellow
* Lee Nisbet, Special Projects Director
Fellows
* James E. Alcock, psychologist, York Univ., Toronto
* Jerry Andrus, magician and inventor, Albany, Oregon
* Marcia Angell, M.D., former editor-in-chief, New England Journal of Medicine
* Robert A. Baker, psychologist, Univ. of Kentucky
* Stephen Barrett, M.D., psychiatrist, author, consumer advocate, Allentown, Pa.
* Barry Beyerstein,* biopsychologist, Simon Fraser Univ., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
* Irving Biederman, psychologist, Univ. of Southern California
* Susan Blackmore, psychologist, Univ. of the West of England, Bristol
* Henri Broch, physicist, Univ. of Nice, France
* Jan Harold Brunvand, folklorist, professor of English, Univ. of Utah
* Vern Bullough, Distinguished Professor, State Univ. of New York (***)
* Mario Bunge, philosopher, McGill University
* John R. Cole, anthropologist, Dept of Anthropology, UMass-Amherst; Organismic and Evolutionary Biology, UMass
* Frederick Crews, literary and cultural critic, professor emeritus of English, Univ. of California, Berkeley
* Richard Dawkins, zoologist, Oxford Univ.
* Cornelis de Jager, professor of astrophysics, Univ. of Utrecht, the Netherlands
* Kenneth Feder, professor of anthropology, Central Connecticut State Univ.
* Antony Flew, philosopher, Reading Univ., U.K.
* Andrew Fraknoi, astronomer, Foothill College, Los Altos Hills, Calif.
* Kendrick Frazier,* science writer, Editor, Skeptical Inquirer
* Yves Galifret, Exec. Secretary, l'Union Rationaliste
* Martin Gardner,* author, critic
* Murray Gell-Mann, professor of physics, Santa Fe Institute
* Thomas Gilovich, psychologist, Cornell Univ.
* Henry Gordon, magician, columnist, Toronto
* Saul Green, PhD, biochemist, president of ZOL Consultants, New York, NY
* Susan Haack, Cooper Senior Scholar in Arts and Sciences, prof. of philosophy, University of Miami
* C. E. M. Hansel, psychologist, Univ. of Wales
* Al Hibbs, scientist, Jet Propulsion Laboratory
* Douglas Hofstadter, professor of human understanding and cognitive science, Indiana Univ.
* Gerald Holton, Mallinckrodt Professor of Physics and Professor of History of Science, Harvard Univ.
* Ray Hyman,* psychologist, Univ. of Oregon
* Leon Jaroff, sciences editor, Time
* Sergei Kapitza, editor, Russian edition, Scientific American
* Philip J. Klass,* aerospace writer, engineer
* Edwin C. Krupp, astronomer, director, Griffith Observatory
* Paul Kurtz,* chairman, CSICOP
* Lawrence Kusche, science writer
* Leon Lederman, emeritus director, Fermilab; Nobel laureate in physics
* Scott Lilienfeld, psychologist, Emory Univ.
* Lin Zixin, former editor, Science and Technology Daily (China)
* Jere Lipps, Museum of Paleontology, Univ. of California, Berkeley
* Elizabeth Loftus, professor of psychology, Univ. of Washington
* Paul MacCready, scientist/engineer, AeroVironment, Inc., Monrovia, Calif.
* John Maddox, editor emeritus of Nature
* David Marks, psychologist, Middlesex Polytech, England
* Mario Mendex-Acosta, journalist and science writer, Mexico City, Mexico
* Marvin Minsky, professor of Media Arts and Sciences, M.I.T.
* David Morrison, space scientist, NASA Ames Research Center
* Richard A. Muller, professor of physics, Univ. of Calif., Berkeley
* H. Narasimhaiah, physicist, president, Bangalore Science Forum, India
* Dorothy Nelkin, sociologist New York Univ.
* Joe Nickell,* senior researh fellow, CSICOP
* Lee Nisbet,* philosopher, Medaille College
* Bill Nye, science educator and television host, Nye Labs
* James E. Oberg, science writer
* Irmgard Oepen, professor of medicine (retired), Marburg, Germany
* Loren Pankratz, psychologist, Oregon Health Sciences Univ.
* John Paulos, mathematician, Temple Univ.
* Steven Pinker, cognitive scientist, MIT
* Massimo Polidoro, science writer, author, executive director CICAP, Italy
* Milton Rosenberg, psychologist, Univ. of Chicago
* Wallace Sampson, M.D., clinical professor of medicine, Stanford Univ.
* Armadeo Sarma, engineer, head of dept. at T-Nova Deutsche Telekom, executive director, GWUP, Germany
* Evry Schatzman, President, French Physics Association
* Eugenie Scott, physical anthropologist, executive director, National Center for Science Education
* Robert Sheaffer, science writer
* Elie A Shneour, biochemist, author, director, Biosystems Research Institute, La Jolla, Calif.
* Dick Smith, film producer, publisher, Terrey Hills, N.S.W., Australia
* Robert Steiner, magician, author, El Cerrito, Calif.
* Jill Cornell Tarter, SETI Institute
* Carol Tavris, psychologist and author, Los Angeles, Calif.
* Dave Thomas, President of New Mexicans for Science and Reason
* Stephen Toulmin, professor of philosophy, University of Southern California
* Neil deGrasse Tyson, astrophysicist and director, Hayden Planetarium, New York City
* Marilyn vos Savant, Parade magazine contributing editor and CBS News correspondent
* Steven Weinberg, professor of physics and astronomy, University of Texas at Austin.
* Richard Wiseman, psychologist, University of Hertfordshire
* Marvin Zelen, statistician, Harvard Univ.
* Member, CSICOP Executive Council

(Affiliations given for identification only.**

-----------------------------------------------------------------
**Does this mean that they may be incorrect?

***Does this mean this person is at ALL SUNY campuses throughout the state or none at all since all SUNY campuses identify themselves as "SUNY-someplace" e.g. SUNY-Buffalo, SUNY-Stoney Brook, etc.

 

[Donks]

**Does this mean that they may be incorrect?

I would assume it means they tell you what organization they are affiliated with so that you can identify which person, among all those with the exact same name, they mean. Or in other words, "Affiliations given for identification only."

***Does this mean this person is at ALL SUNY campuses throghout the state or none at all since all SUNY campuses identify themselves as "SUNY-someplace" e.g. SUNY-Buffalo, SUNY-Stoney Brook, etc.

All or none? Those are the only two choices? Isn't there a name for that? Something along the lines of... untruthful quandary? No, that's not right. False dilemma! That's it!

 

[Skeptic]

I pity his poor children having a father who on top of living this lie then has the gaul to write a book about it.

I didn't know he had French lovers...

Seriously, the problem with this guy is essentially an A-hole. Had he done the same with women, people would rightly claim he is a class-A jerk for cheating and lying on his wife like that. Now that he was banging men instead, all of a sudden it was "homophobia" that made him cheat.

Ah well.

Still, the "Onion" headline about him was funny: "Gay man admits to being Governor of new Jersey".

 

[Skeptic]

How do you know that homosexuality is a choice?

I think he means cruising for lovers at truck stops was a choice.

 

[Skeptic]

I'm talking about what is considered "normal". Man, woman, in-out, thank-you-ma'am.

You're right. I'm quite sure that if this guy was cruising at truck stops for female hookers instead of gay lovers, he would have no problem at all telling his wife and voters all about it, because it's, you know, a heterosexual thing, so what's to hide?

 

[hgc]

I think he means cruising for lovers at truck stops was a choice.

Or that having his boyfriend, unqualified and not a US citizen, on the state payroll was a choice.

 

[CFLarsen]

Here is a list of CSICOP Fellows along with its URL. Hold this aside for a few hours as there is more to follow.....also see questions at the end.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
**Does this mean that they may be incorrect?

***Does this mean this person is at ALL SUNY campuses throughout the state or none at all since all SUNY campuses identify themselves as "SUNY-someplace" e.g. SUNY-Buffalo, SUNY-Stoney Brook, etc.

Which one(s) of the books you listed justify, glorify and condone pedophilia?

 

[SteveGrenard]

First things first. I was addressing your comments regarding the late Professor Vern Bullough. Prof. Bullough died on June 21st in California.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/03/us/03bullough.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

He was a CSICOP Fellow and during the years he was in that position while teaching medical history at SUNY-Buffalo he was also a consultant to the Dutch pro-pedophilia journal called Paidika. His resume clearly points this out.

Professor Bullough also was the editor who developed Prometheus' books on sexually related "science" which included sexual autobiographies, titles such as given above and their porno video catalogue running to 7, I think 8 volumes.

In answer to your specific question, I have not read any of this trash but I have reviewed the reviews and descriptions of many nof these titles and anyone is welcome to do the same.

CV of a CSICOP Fellow:

http://www.vernbullough.com/bullough/activities/editorial.html

Here is an interview from the magazine for which the Distiguished Professor was a member of its editorial board for a decade.

http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/NudistHallofShame/Underwager2.html

1988 - Editor, Prometheus Books, Series, New Concepts In Human Sexuality, an on going series.

1988 - Editorial Advisory Board, Psychology and Human Sexuality..
1988 - 98 - Consulting Editor, Paidika

The forum entry was from Skeptic Friends Network. The poster :Tomk80 from Netherlands. He was asked to research about what Paidika is.
His response was : “To answer dr. Mabuses question on what kind of magazine 'paidika' is. It is a dutch peer-reviewed magazine on paedophilia.”
[URL="http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum...00&whichpage=15"]http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum...00&whichpage=15[/URL]

It you are not satisfied with the link , let’s try with the links posted by Warrently (on his first post on page 3) , in his attempt to defend Ralph Underwager's view and Dr Vern Bullough .

About Ralph Underwager:
http://www.napanet.net/~moiraj/wwwb...sages/1986.html

“ABSTRACT: In 1990, Ralph Underwager and Hollida Wakefield gave an interview to the editor of Paidika, The Journal of Paedophilia, a scholarly journal published in Holland. The interview was published in 1993. Since that time, statements from the interview have been taken out-of-context and misinterpreted as indicating that RU and HW approve of pedophilia and child sexual abuse. Here, they respond to these criticisms and accusations.”

The fact is for many years after having left SUNY Buffalo, Professor Bullough was not at SUNY but was advertised as such by CSICOP for "the purposes of identification." His most recent teaching assignments are chronicled in the Times obituary so I fail to understand why CSICOP shouldn't have used these to identify him.

Professor Bullough is gone now but his legacy at Prometheus Books lives on. I remain comitted to the position that the books listed above are way out of step, way out of character for a publisher such as Prometheus and can only ponder why they are projects of this otherwise venerable publishing effort.

 

[TragicMonkey]

In answer to your specific question, I have not read any of this trash

Then how do you know they're "trash"? Do you only psychically review books, or do you have opinions on movies you haven't seen as well?

 

[HarryKeogh]

Steve, do you also rail against the cable, satellite and hotel chains who all make millions of dollars a year selling hard-core porn?

 

[Rob Lister]

Steve, do you also rail against the cable, satellite and hotel chains who all make millions of dollars a year selling hard-core porn?

I do. It pisses me off to no end. Do you have any idea how embarassing it is to have to turn that itemized hotel receipt in as a business expense...and then to have to highlight the items that are to be deducted? Bastards. The ladies in finance have gotten used to it. I just wish they'd stop telling the people in HR, B&D, Ops and Records. Bastards.

 

[HarryKeogh]

I just wish they'd stop telling the people in HR, B&D, Ops and Records. Bastards.

Oh, this is awkward. They told us too. Did you really think you could away claiming that "Young, Hung Studs" was a training expense?

 

[Rob Lister]

Oh, this is awkward. They told us too. Did you really think you could away claiming that "Young, Hung Studs" was a training expense?

I wasn't wearing my glasses. I thought it said "Young, Hung Juggs." You can understand that kind of mistake, right?

 

[Luke T.]

I'd never heard of Paidika before now. So I googled it.

An interview from the magazine:

(ETA: The same Ralph Underwager and Hollida Wakefield interivew, I gather, mentioned above in one of Steve's posts.)

The solution that I'm suggesting is that paedophiles become much more positive. They should directly attack the concept, the image, the picture of the paedophile as an evil, wicked, and reprehensible exploiter of children.

I think the radical feminist opposition to paedophilia comes out of the general perception of men as aggressive and dominating. They use sex to dominate the weak. The weak would be women and children. That the opposition comes out of women's jealousy because men can have meaningful paedophile relationships, and they wish they could, I don't agree with it.

Link1

Sounds pretty friendly to pedophilia to me.

Here's one for you, Claus:

PAIDIKA: Is heterosexuality for you also learned behavior?

HOLLIDA WAKEFIELD: Yes.

RALPH UNDERWAGER: Yes.

PAIDIKA: What do you mean when you say sexual orientation is learned behavior; where do you go from there?

HOLLIDA WAKEFIELD: It means that a person has more freedom. There is an element of choice for someone not happy with whatever their sexual life is. They can learn to improve it. If it's a sexual dysfunction, somebody who's a premature ejaculator or impotent for example, they can learn something different. If a homosexual did not want to be homosexual, really wanted to be a heterosexual, there would be techniques that would have a decent chance of allowing that person to change. I'm not saying the person should want to change. I'm only saying that there is an element of choice. A person can determine their own sexual direction, and there are many behavioral techniques available that would allow the person to change.

Link2

 

[Luke T.]

Also from the second link:

PAIDIKA: Is choosing paedophilia for you a responsible choice for the individuals?

RALPH UNDERWAGER: Certainly it is responsible. What I have been struck by as I have come to know more about and understand people who choose paedophilia is that they let themselves be too much defined by other people. That is usually an essentially negative definition. Paedophiles spend a lot of time and energy defending their choice. I don't think that a paedophile needs to do that. Paedophiles can boldly and courageously affirm what they choose. They can say that what they want is to find the best way to love. I am also a theologian and as a theologian, I believe it is God's will that there be closeness and intimacy, unity of the flesh, between people. A paedophile can say: "This closeness is possible for me within the choices that I've made."
Paedophiles are too defensive. They go around saying, "You people out there are saying that what I choose is bad, that it's no good. You're putting me in prison, you're doing all these terrible things to me. I have to define my love as being in some way or other illicit." What I think is that paedophiles can make the assertion that the pursuit of intimacy and love is what they choose. With boldness, they can say, "I believe this is in fact part of God's will." They have the right to make these statements for themselves as personal choices. Now whether or not they can persuade other people they are right is another matter (laughs).

Pedophilia as God's will. How. About. That.