Jesus was the only one of these "figures" you declare to be executed by the state.
-Elliot
Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)
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Jesus was the only one of these "figures" you declare to be executed by the state.
-Elliot
bluess
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Now, now, Mistress, you're trying to reconcile religion and logic again. You know you'll just give yourself a migraine.
<sigh> Wish Freakshow would get back with the fishbowl. Then we could relax you properly. . .
Praise the FSM and pass the meat sauce....
bluess
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Don't know why I keep doing this....
The death that ElliotFC is talking about is not the same as the physical death you address above. Do please try to keep your own theological definitions straight. According to your bible, sinners do not necessarily 'pay the penalty in this life'. They may 'flourish as the bay tree', but pay
'the penalty' in the after life.
Have you read Dante lately? You'll be spending rather a long time in purgatory to expunge your sins prior to landing in heaven.
Attribute statements to the correct person, please. I mentioned nothing about Lucifer. But, moving on, why would the omnipotent and omniscient being you worship need to test you to determine what is truly in your heart? Doesn't he know?
And, Elliot, while I don't agree with you, I certainly appreciate your capacity to engage in intelligent discussion. I, too, would buy you a beer/cuppa/ice cream.
Arkan_Wolfshade
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And that is another attempt to move the goalposts. You original statement was
The answer that was provided extrapolated "crucified" to "sacrificed". You did not correct them by stating you meant "executed by the state", but instead allowed the discussion to continue until this point; when it becomes convenient to redefine it.
kurious_kathy
THE TEMPERATURE OF HEAVEN
The temperature of Heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is Isaiah 30:26, "Moreover, the light of the Moon shall be as the light of the Sun and the light of the Sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days." Thus Heaven receives from the Moon as much radiation as we do from the Sun, and in addition 7*7 (49) times as much as the Earth does from the Sun, or 50 times in all. The light we receive from the Moon is one 1/10,000 of the light we receive from the Sun, so we can ignore that ... The radiation falling on Heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation, i.e., Heaven loses 50 times as much heat as the Earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann law for radiation, (H/E)^4 = 50, where E is the absolute temperature of the earth (300°K), gives H as 798°K (525°C). The exact temperature of Hell cannot be computed ... [However] Revelations 21:8 says "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." A lake of molten brimstone means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, 444.6°C. We have, then, that Heaven, at 525°C is hotter than Hell at 445°C.
Ossai
So then Jr. Love didn’t conquer death.
Where exactly? References.
Because heaven, as defined in the bible, is so much worse.
THE TEMPERATURE OF HEAVEN
The temperature of Heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is Isaiah 30:26, "Moreover, the light of the Moon shall be as the light of the Sun and the light of the Sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days." Thus Heaven receives from the Moon as much radiation as we do from the Sun, and in addition 7*7 (49) times as much as the Earth does from the Sun, or 50 times in all. The light we receive from the Moon is one 1/10,000 of the light we receive from the Sun, so we can ignore that ... The radiation falling on Heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation, i.e., Heaven loses 50 times as much heat as the Earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann law for radiation, (H/E)^4 = 50, where E is the absolute temperature of the earth (300°K), gives H as 798°K (525°C). The exact temperature of Hell cannot be computed ... [However] Revelations 21:8 says "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." A lake of molten brimstone means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, 444.6°C. We have, then, that Heaven, at 525°C is hotter than Hell at 445°C.
Dam, all those apostles were dummies. After all they received lots of proof. What with Jr. walking around and performing all those miracles for them. How can we possibly trust the word of idiots?
Ossai
Arkan_Wolfshade
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I'd like to reply to about 8 posts above, but I don't have the time today and shall be vacationing for a bit and if I bump into any of you I will expect to have beer and ice cream bought for me, I'm the tall good-looking guy with the big nose.
Yes, my original statement *was* crucified. What other figure was crucified? Not Buddha. Not Horus/Osiris. A few...questionable websites...claim such things. I've yet to see any expert in mythology confirm these made up lists of correlations (while I of course admit that some of them are true similarities).
I was being *generous*, in my opinion, by changing it to sacrificed, from crucified. I did add state to that mix.
As for my moving the goalposts, my point was that just because a *correlation* can be seen, it doesn't mean that later things which can be said to correlate to previous things necessarily implies duplication, as opposed to actual occurrence.
Is it logical, or, not illogical, to believe that similarities between Jesus and other dying/rising figures implies that the Jesus story was altered or completely guided by copying elements from previous mythologies? Sure. I would only add that I think adherents to this model do a tremendous disservice by a)MAKING THINGS UP (often by giving a laundry list of similarities without providing any references to where the particular was culled from) b)ignoring the essential differences between the figures and c)assuming that similarity proves, conclusively, that a story was built on stories of the past.
Many Christians believe that previous templates of dying/rising figures are "happy dreams", which would make it easier to accept the *true* dying/rising figure. Just throwing that out there.
-Elliot
kurious_kathy
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Jesus did many miracle to show people who he really was. What concerns me now is that he left us with the statement here in Matt 12:38-40...
The Desire for Signs
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
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RandFan
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Assuming the story is true then they got their sign. How convenient that proof (signs) are not to be given out anymore and that to want proof (a sign) is to be evil. What? Paul said "prove all things". How can I prove those things without proof.
Need help here.
sphenisc
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Ossai;1735465 [b said:
Using this version
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Is++30:26
I interpret this as meaning the moon will be equivalent to 1 [present] sun and the sun will provide seven times as much radiation, giving a total of 8. Using this value gives Heaven a temperature of 231°C, way cooler than Hell.
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DJ Hexadecibel
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My favourite button: "MUMBLE, Mumble, mumble....POOF!"
kurious_kathy
Let me simplify
Friday afternoon and night = ½ day (being generous here I could give it 1)
All day Saturday = 1 day
½ + 1 = 1.5 not 3
(being generous 1 + 1 = 2 not 3)
zombies dead saints appearing and walking amongst the living, but no one outside the story bothered to report all the dead walking about.
Ossai
Apparently you can’t count. Friday night, all day Saturday does not make three days.
Let me simplify
Friday afternoon and night = ½ day (being generous here I could give it 1)
All day Saturday = 1 day
½ + 1 = 1.5 not 3
(being generous 1 + 1 = 2 not 3)
The bible also reported
The Silver age Superman did it better, catch phrase and everything.
Yes and as defined in the bible, Heaven will be even hotter.
Well, there you have it. Jr. declared himself NOT the Son of Man. Apparently Jr. just couldn’t go that extra day and a half.
Ossai
DJ Hexadecibel
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Ha, I remember Quest for Glory: So You Want to Be a Hero using that gag on the signs going to Erasmus's house.
"Wilkommen auf Zauberberg!" (sp?)
"Trespassers will be Toad!"
DJ Hexadecibel
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Harmless, huh? Guess that rules out S&M, hmm?
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains excite me!
DJ Hexadecibel
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Um. . .brought peace?
Well, I say you're the Messiah, and I should know. I've followed a few!
supercorgi
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It's sort of like poking a dead animal with a stick. Useless, disgusting, but strangely fascinating.
bluess
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A snorting, embarassing laughing fit has just occurred.....
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
A generation now long past.
Kathy, let me try to get through to you one more time. Maybe you'll figure this out, this time.
What you cannot seem to grasp is that people here do not hate Jesus. There are serious questions people have regarding Christ, but this is not out of hate, but out of genuine interest in dealing with things in a rational manner. This means people need FACTS, rather than mere "belief."
There is nothing wrong with believing. It's when there's nothing to support it that you run into trouble.
Airplanes fly. They don't fly because of magic; they fly because their design takes the maximum advantage of physical laws which make flight possible. It's the same thing behind boats floating, houses standing, Spidey13 farting.... (Okay, that last one was a ringer. No one knows why Spidey farts.)
You have engaged in some of the weirdest scripture twisting I've ever encountered. To be honest, I'd have to find a Jehovah's Witness to get it close to warping it out of shape as badly as you have. Randfan and others have shown you REPEATEDLY where you're wrong. You've ignored it, though why you would, I've no clue, particularly since you claim you're interested in learning more.
I'm reminded of an argument I've had with others about Paul's letters to Timothy. He tells Timothy to study to show himself approved. Study what? The Bible? It didn't exist at that time, and the Septuagint, the Greek Old Testament, would only have been in the hands of the learned few. Even a Hebrew copy of the OT would have been exceptionally rare, and only in the hands of Rabbis and other scholars, and not in the hands of someone who was in leadership of the "Nazarene Cult."
There were other Christian scholars at that time, though none as well trained and known as Paul. (From what I've read, even Mary Magdalene was considered quite a teacher at that time.) If I had to guess, Paul wanted Timothy to study such writings as those of Aristotle, Plato, Hippocrates, Euclid, Archimedes... In other words, the best scholars of the day.
There was time when the Church was THE repository for scientific knowledge, and the one place where you could count on getting a good education. It was the place where some of the greatest advances in knowledge were taking place, though not always with the blessings of the papacy. Gregor Mendel, as only one example, was a monk. Thomas Aquinas, who was at the leading edge of the Scholastic Movement, was also a theologian. It's hard to remember this when you're watching Jerry Fallwell or Pat Robertson as they're hawking Intelligent Design.
The whole point of belief is to either confirm it or deny it, but to do so on the basis of fact. Without that, you don't have faith, you have illusion. Either learn, or admit ignorance, even if it's willful. But don't claim to have what you don't.
A co-worker of mine pulled the "chair test" with me once, about two years ago. He told me to sit in the chair, then told me I sat down because of Faith. Maybe so; I'd seen someone else heavier than me sitting in it, and it held them. I figured it would hold my fat @$$, too. But real Faith involves knowing the realities behind the structure of that chair, knowing that if it's constructed in a particular manner, it will hold weight, and it will do so for a considerable length of time. Real Faith, to use the light switch analogy, is knowing the basic principles of what makes electricity work, so you truly understand what happens when you flip that switch.
As I've said: I'm questioning everything about what I believe. If this leads me to believe that there is no God, it will be based on factual evidence, not what I want to believe. It means instead of basing my actions on hitting my knees and muttering platitudes to an entity which may or may not exist, (and frankly, if we're so fallen, why is He cutting deals with us at all?), I've been basing them over the past few years on what I know works, based on what the evidence shows.
Sometimes it works. Usually, when it doesn't, it's because I failed in my initial analysis, and wound up reverting to wishful thinking. (In other words, I've had my head up my @$$.)
Frankly, I wish I could truly "believe" as I did years ago, and "know" that everything would work out for the best if I just prayed, payed my tithe, and attended Church. Reality, though, shows that if you want what's best, you're better off with the best information, properly applied. Can't do that? You've no one to blame but yourself when all Hell breaks loose and things go very wrong.
If I get sick, I don't want someone nattering away over me. I want a doctor, someone who has the training, the discipline, the skill, to heal me. Good intentions are fine, but if that's all you have, you're going to kill people. Your Faith will fail. Competence is what you want.
I want proof. I want evidence. I deserve nothing less, if for no other reason than because the stakes are so high. So far, the Evidence does not favor "God." It favors something altogether more fascinating, something far more effective in this world, and quite likely, in the next should it exist. Maybe, just maybe, in searching for God, we're better off looking where we have strong evidence, rather than where we want it to be. Seems to me astronomers, physicists, chemists, biologists and the like would have a better handle on who God truly is than someone who buries their head in an ancient book and drones on and on about the Glories of God, ignoring the very real glories which surround us all. (Something I picked up from Asimov.)
Just a thought.
Spidey13
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It's just my little way of saying, "I love you."