Answering the Lou Gentile Issue

[CFLarsen]

It's True!

 

[valis]

Dummy

Can we all call each other names on the forum now or just Mr. Randi?

 

[CFLarsen]

Can we all call each other names on the forum now or just Mr. Randi?

How would you describe someone who complains about the rules, but clearly hasn't read them?

 

[tmackean]

In defence of KevinM...

Well, my respect for James Randi has just moved down a notch; albeit from a pretty high point!

I'm massively skeptical of the paranormal in all shapes and sizes and have seen no evidence EVER that it exists, so I'm certainly not pro-psychic. Neither am I a fanboy for James Randi, though. I simply believe that there is such a thing as objective truth, as difficult as it can be to find.

KevinM's mail communicated with absolute unequivocal clarity what he believes is the consensus opinion of the paranormal community. He was addressing a problem of perception, not stating his own views or making a direct accusation. Whether or not paranormal practitioners disseminate doubt about the million dollar prize fund as a means of legitimising their avoidance of it is another issue; I suspect, with no evidence, that it is both genuinely doubted by some, honestly accepted by others and cynically criticised by many.

Randi's posting completely missed KevinM's point, and he engaged in some fairly insulting language. It just wasn't called for. Egg on face, I think.

I'm sure that the JREF isn't the first example of an entirely perfect organisation. Mistakes can get made, and possibly have been, over its long history.

Perhaps there DOES need to be some thought out into a campaign which will educate people as to the definite existence of the prize fund, silencing the naysayers - cynical or otherwise.

Perhaps there HAS been occasional administrative lapses which could contribute to unintentional miscommunication and delayed correspondence between the parties involved on opposite sides of the challenge.

Oh, and I think James Randi does superb work, but before he criticises the misspellings of others, he should learn to get his own name correct..! (see the end of his posting)

 

[valis]

How would you describe someone who complains about the rules, but clearly hasn't read them?

I don't know; does a rule of thumb count as a rule?

In his notice about acceptable posting behaviour Darat said:

A good rule of thumb as to what is OK here in terms of politeness and civility is “Attacking the argument is fine attacking the Member isn’t”.

Unless of course the point was that Kevin is a mute.

 

[CFLarsen]

valis,

If you noticed, Randi also attacked the argument.

You have to admit that it doesn't instil the greatest confidence in someone who complains about the rules, but clearly hasn't read them?

 

[valis]

valis,

If you noticed, Randi also attacked the argument.

You have to admit that it doesn't instil the greatest confidence in someone who complains about the rules, but clearly hasn't read them?

Actually it appeared in the case of his Dummy comment he misunderstood the argument and attacked a posistion that Kevin did not hold.

Either way I fail to see how saying 'Dummy' addresses the facts of the argument?

Yes it is within the letter of the rules to call names. But some also took the time to stick, right up at the top of every forum a note that includes:

A good rule of thumb as to what is OK here in terms of politeness and civility is “Attacking the argument is fine attacking the Member isn’t”.

I am just wondering aloud if that no longer applies or if it applies to some but not others?

 

[Darat]

I don't know; does a rule of thumb count as a rule?

In his notice about acceptable posting behaviour Darat said:


Unless of course the point was that Kevin is a mute.

You may not have noticed but this is the James Randi Educational Foundation Forum, I think he can say what he can do on this forum better then what I can do!

Plus you also are quoting out of context from the rest of my announcement, I also said:

As is clear from that paragraph there is no expectation that everyone will be perfectly civil and polite all the time, that occasionally someone’s emotions won’t get the better of them and they’ll post something that isn’t civil or polite. But of course it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive to be as civil and polite as we can be when we post here.

If Randi was a normal Member and someone had reported his post we wouldn't have taken any action for the word "dummy" given the context.

And the context here is that Kevin is decrying the very foundation (pun intended) of the JREF, anyone who thinks Randi should doff his cap to that and say "thanks very much for your insults and attempts to belittle and undermine everything I've been working to achieve over the last 40 years or so" is ignoring (despite rumours to contra) the fact that Randi is indeed a human being!

Anyway this is rather a digression - do you have anything to contribute regarding the topic of this thread?

 

[tmackean]

Claus,

Please reread the original post. KevinM never complains about the rules, and there is no indication either way as to whether he has read them.

 

[CFLarsen]

Claus,

Please reread the original post. KevinM never complains about the rules, and there is no indication either way as to whether he has read them.

I did read the original post. Is KevinM in any way associated with Lou Gentile, you think?

 

[tmackean]

I did read the original post. Is KevinM in any way associated with Lou Gentile, you think?

No idea.

However most of us on this board are not associated with James Randi, yet quite often mount a spirited defence of him and the prize fund on other bulletin boards.

 

[valis]

Plus you also are quoting out of context from the rest of my announcement, I also said:

As is clear from that paragraph there is no expectation that everyone will be perfectly civil and polite all the time, that occasionally someone’s emotions won’t get the better of them and they’ll post something that isn’t civil or polite. But of course it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive to be as civil and polite as we can be when we post here.

No I made reference to that when I said:

Yes it is within the letter of the rules to call names.

Anyway this is rather a digression - do you have anything to contribute regarding the topic of this thread?

Yes; it appears to me Kevin was stating how other people felt, not himself. Further I am not the only one that read it that way appearently.

I did misunderstand CF Larsen's point when he said:

How would you describe someone who complains about the rules, but clearly hasn't read them?

In reply to my first post. I thought he was stating that I was complaining about the rules allowing name calling and that was the reason I quoted your notice. Apparently Mr. Larsen was reffering to Kevin not reading the rules.

My mistake and I am sorry for any confusion my reply caused.

That said my personal opinion, for what it is worth is that name calling cheapens the caller and not the subject. It is indeed Randi's forum and he can certainly say whatever he likes. I assume since he posted said thoughts in a public forum that he meant for them to be read and commented upon.

 

[CFLarsen]

Here is his post, with comments. It is one, long whine:

Since Lou is obviously unable to respond

"Lou"? Kinda familiar tone, hm?

(and I'm glad to see Mr. Randi acknowledges that and don't fault him on that count). Let me make a few observations. First in spite of the rules the wide feeling in the paranormal community is the following:
1) Randi doesn't really have the money
2) Randi will not pay up ever and will instead continue to offer rationalizations for any phenomenon insisting it didn't fit the criteria
3) Randi will demand sudden changes to protocol

Regardless of the accuracy of any of these statements the majority of people who believe in psychic phenomenon believe them. Several people have claimed to have passed the test, or to have been refused to be tested or some thing of the sort. By itself this is not proof of any thing.

If this is not something Kevin believes, why bring it up at all? To cast suspicion on Randi and the Challenge, of course.

JREF's inconsistency in response and carelessness in communication does NOT lend any credence to the challenge. Sending a message via the contact form on the Radio Show web site as opposed to sending a direct email, sending via us mail, or simply calling is an obviously stupid way to communicate some thing of this importance. Any one can claim to be any one on it so when Lou got one claiming to be from James Randi he fairly reasonably disregarded it.

Why is that an "obviously stupid" way? Huge companies rely on online forms to do business, so why not JREF? If the contact form is there, why not use it?

A cheap attack, nothing more.

As to taking the time whats the problem? Do I really need to point out the ammount of jerking around thats gone on on JREFs side. Taking months to respond

Randi can acknowledge that Lou Gentile has been out for a while, but Kevin can't acknowledge that the same has happened to Randi? Nice...

, not informing claiments of Krammer no longer handling claims

Why on Earth is that relevant? Applicants are dealing with JREF, not a specific person.

or Randi's illness(sure its on the web site but in whats supposed to be an organization some one should be capable of this kind of basic communication don't expect people to rush to respond to you).

Give me a break! Putting that kind of information on the website is the best way to communicate.

Also as for changing things theres the slight detail of Randi rejecting the original protocol, deciding on a new one suggested by us and then sending the revision in an email who's subject line was apparently spam

That is not Randi's fault.

and we never received.

"We"? That definitely speaks in favor of Kevin being closely associated with Lou Gentile.

Aside from which we've found a large problem with the new protocol after consulting a professional magician of our aquantance. Any one with a reasonable ammount of training as a magician should be able to see into, manipulate or change the contents of envelopes.

The protocol that was suggested by Kevin et al, yes.

While we are confident Randi will make sure we can not do this the very real question remains of what prevents some one from JREF from manipulating the envelopes.

Talk to the magician, then, and set it up in the protocol.

I"m sorry but promises of honesty aren't going to cut it any more then Randi would rely solely on a claiments word they won't manipulate the test.

Huh? The protocol is there to ensure that there won't be any need of "promises of honesty".

When Mr Gentile does recover we will be looking into the matter and trying to find a viable solution.

"We", again. It looks very much to me as if the good Kevin is heavily involved with Lou Gentile.

JREF should in the mean time wait since they have no qualms about making others do so.

And that's what they have said they will do.

 

[Zep]

...and we've come back round the circle.

I do believe I already noted that KevinM had not actually made a direct point on which to argue, just a whine about...something.

 

[Aepervius]

I respectfully disagree

...and we've come back round the circle.

I do believe I already noted that KevinM had not actually made a direct point on which to argue, just a whine about...something.

most of the time up to now I was on JREF side against woo, even in the thread about reciprocibility (sp?) on suing.

But here I have to "slightly" side on KevinM. The protocol is made to eliminate bias and possibility of Fraud. But what you have to agree to, is that it is perfectly understandable that the "testee" wish the same protection .against JREF, aka elimination of bias manipulation risk within the protocol. Kinda a double blind to eliminate bias on experimentater side too.

Now where I totally disagree with him, is the way he is handling it (if we assume he is speaking officialy for Lou Gentile) instead of asking to have an additional blinding and negociating protocol change for that, well he is instead picking up a tantrum. This is the point on which KevinM is wrong (mind you I think also randi reaction isn't correct either, but everybody seems to boil up quicker than milk these day)

 

[Kimpatsu]

I happen to know that Randi is quite particular with his spelling.

I didn't think Randi believed in spells...

 

[Kimpatsu]

Can we all call each other names on the forum now or just Mr. Randi?

I am NOT calling you "Mr. Randi"!

 

[Raphael]

I love it that The Amazing One doesn't suffer fools- he's earned it!

Also, I don't give a whit if some applicants feel they haven't been treated like royalty. Anyone who can really do what they say, has the motivation to continue, while those who are deluded and/or looking for attention will look for excuses in etiquette.

 

[RSLancastr]

I did read the original post. Is KevinM in any way associated with Lou Gentile, you think?

According to this early post of KevinM's:

"Ok first I'm a coleague of Mr Gentile and in fact was co author on both the original press release and on the application. As such I can probably clear a few things up."

So apparently, he is associated with Mr. Gentile, or at least says that he is.

 

[CFLarsen]

Thanks.