Answering the Lou Gentile Issue

KevinM said:
IT requires us to believe his motives are on the up and up and that unlike most other people he isn't so set in his beliefs he'll never except the paranormal just because it doesn't fit his world view. He may think he is adaptive and willing to change but that doesn't mean he'll admit he's wrong if he's proven wrong. He certainly seems stuborn enough.
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And this is where you are wrong.

It is NOT NECESSARY THAT RANDI AGREE IF ANYTHING IS PARANORMAL OR NOT TO PASS THE CHALLENGE. If the protocols are agreed beforehand, Randi will have nothing to do with any subsequent pass/fail. At that point, before the testing takes place, JREF has already agreed that the money IS winnable and that it WILL be passed over on success. No matter how much he personally may grumble and dislike it afterwards, no matter how much it may not be his "world view", JREF is legally bound to pass it over if the challenger passes the testing. Randi cannot adapt the situation to his advantage - you could sue the ass off him and JREF if he did, and he knows that full well.

Which is why the testing protocol is necessary to have a definite unjudgeable pass/fail criteria. That way, Randi has no input on the judging process, and so he has no comeback on the results. Exactly the same as the challenger.

Now is there anything about that not quite clear?
 
A piece at a time...

The strange mis-spelled and rambling tirade that "KevinM" has put up here, needs a response. I'll do this in steps, replying to about 100 words at a time, since those who make irresponsible claims and/or statements about the JREF challenge, and my involvement in it, seem to need to be fed no more than a spoonful at a time; more than that strains their capacity. To begin:
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(1) "Since Lou is obviously unable to respond(and I'm glad to see Mr. Randi acknowledges that and don't fault him on that count)."

An incomplete sentence, but why is this such a huge surprise?
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(2) "Let me make a few observations. First in spite of the rules the wide feeling in the paranormal community is the following:
1) Randi doesn't really have the money

Dummy, it clearly, plainly, coherently, states in the challenge rules -- if you'd ever troubled to read them, before shooting off your mouth -- under Rule 8: "One million dollars in negotiable bonds is held by an investment firm in New York, in the "James Randi Educational Foundation Prize Account" as surety for the prize funds. Validation of this account and its current status may be obtained by contacting the Foundation by telephone, fax, or e-mail." Gee, "KevinM," I don't recall your ever contacting us for validation! Some others, obviously smarter than you, have asked for the validation, and have received -- free of any charge -- a dated copy of the account information, the account balance, and the details of the account. READ THE RULES.
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2) Randi will not pay up ever and will instead continue to offer rationalizations for any phenomenon insisting it didn't fit the criteria

Where did this revelation come from? Since, in all the scores of tests done, no one has ever passed the preliminary test, no formal test has taken place. How then was the conclusion reached that I -- more properly, the JREF, since the million dollars is not mine -- would not "pay up"? And as for offering excuses, that is not possible by the rules; both sides are committed to the decisions made in the agreed-upon protocol. There are no escape clauses. READ THE RULES.
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3) Randi will demand sudden changes to protocol

Another divine revelation? No changes to the agreed-upon protocol can be made -- by either party. READ THE RULES.
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That's all for now. As soon as "KevinM" has read -- and understood -- this beginning, I'll move on.

James Randi.
 
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Wow

Glad to see you responded althoiugh not exactly in awe of your continual need to insult.

I suggest you reread what I wrote since you missed the fairly obvious point. I did not say I don't believe you have the money. What I did point out is that among the multiple complaints raised against you thats a common one. I doubt your ignorant of the fact the majority of the paranormal community seems to think this is some kind of scam. While I"ve got your attention any chance you'd address your communication problems? I know you think every one reads your site but reasonable update(ie changes in the personel we should deal with) would be emailed out instead of making us come to you.
 
I've Read Your Rules

The question isn't what they say its what happens. Do we really need to go back over the incident you and Lou and had regarding the protocol change? The whole lack of an email was rather interesting. As was the incredible lack of communication beofre hand.
 
So is your problem, KevinM, that you are complaining that Randi has not emailed you soon enough for your liking. Is THAT it?
 
Can we please stop talking to KevinM like he has some official standing in this matter. Any discussion in this matter needs to be between the JREF and the challenge applicant, Mr. Lou Gentile. KevinM has no authority to negotiate on behalf of Mr. Gentile, and I am saddened that Mr. Randi felt it necessary to become involved in this discussion. The last thing he should be doing is lowering himself to the level of these deluded people.
 
KevinM,

Let's stop for a moment here, shall we?

Let's clear up one thing: The money.

It exists.

As is clearly stated by JREF, you can get validation of the account by contacting JREF, by phone, fax or mail.

Heck, you can even see a print-out right here:

investmentaccount.gif


Do you acknowledge that the money exists, yes or no?

I am not saying that you claimed the money doesn't exist. I just want to get that issue out of the way. I am sure you are very interested in that, too.
 
Gr8wight said:
Can we please stop talking to KevinM like he has some official standing in this matter. Any discussion in this matter needs to be between the JREF and the challenge applicant, Mr. Lou Gentile. KevinM has no authority to negotiate on behalf of Mr. Gentile, and I am saddened that Mr. Randi felt it necessary to become involved in this discussion. The last thing he should be doing is lowering himself to the level of these deluded people.
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To be honest, up until now, KevinM has yet to actually make a straight-out point we can actually get annoyed about. He doesn't seem to want to either. I wish he would...

So far, he has simply parrotted back all the usual gobbledegook we hear with monotonous regularity from the less credible sections of the woo population, but has not actually argued for any them. I don't think that makes him a spokesperson for anyone, perhaps just someone who has previously accepted at face-value some of the woo stances, but now is realising it just isn't so. Could be he is even re-evaluating his position entirely? Or maybe he just doesn't like the JREF email server, I don't know...

Well, Randi is over 80 now, and has a long-standing reputation for being a cumudgeon. I'd say he has earned his right to cumudgeon-ness! Would we expect any less now? ;)
 
Zep said:
Well, Randi is over 80 now, and has a long-standing reputation for being a cumudgeon. I'd say he has earned his right to cumudgeon-ness! Would we expect any less now? ;)
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I consider myself a curmudgeon in training, I only hope to attain Randi's stature as such. My father is also over 80 (and oddly enough looks like Randi's doppleganger) and he has certainly earned his right to be grumpy if he likes.

I say revel in one's curmudgeoness!
 
Okay, okay Claus. He's 78 or thereabouts. Pointless pedantry. Even so, I'd say he's still entitled to a great deal of cumudgeoninity. And heaven knows what YOU will be like when you get to his age (IF you get to his age...) starting from where you are now. ;)
 
Ummm, guys? Sorry to get in the middle of your mudslinging....but the word is curmudgeon.

There's an "r" in there....

I happen to know that Randi is quite particular with his spelling.
 
macgyver said:
Ummm, guys? Sorry to get in the middle of your mudslinging....but the word is curmudgeon.

There's an "r" in there....

I happen to know that Randi is quite particular with his spelling.
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Noted with thanks.

Please read throughout:

curmudgeon
curmudgeonness
curmudgeoninity
 
KevinM said:
I doubt your ignorant of the fact the majority of the paranormal community seems to think this is some kind of scam.
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Yeah, right, it's a giant scam. The JREF tricks people with paranormal abilities into trying to display these abilities to independant third parties, and these people with the paranormal abilities seem to not have them when in the presence of these independant third parties. Man, that's some scam. They must be rolling in the dough.
 
Zep said:
Okay, okay Claus. He's 78 or thereabouts. Pointless pedantry.
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You should know better than me that, when you get up there, each year counts. :)

Zep said:
Even so, I'd say he's still entitled to a great deal of cumudgeoninity.
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I am perpetually surprised that he has so little of it.

Zep said:
And heaven knows what YOU will be like when you get to his age (IF you get to his age...) starting from where you are now. ;)
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I'm mellowing out with age....
 
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