Tyical
Frankly the hypocracy here is funny. I'm waiting for one of you to post according to the Book of Skepticism CHapter 1 Verse 1. You sound like religious nuts defending there beliefs not rational adults discussing a topic.
While its a waste(you can't see Randi as fallable) lets point out what the inteligent should not miss.
Yes Randi posted to his web site. Thats about it. Great communication there. LIke every other important detail about claims JREF felt no need to communciate to claiments this information. Of course this in the minds of the randi ites is perfectly acceptable. Kramer not being the person to email regarding the challenge wasn't important? Explain this please. To me it sounds ubsurd. Of course you'd probably rationalize it that we should read Randi's web site and his organization doesn't have to bother with proper communication.
As to the recorder whats your point? That one piece of equipment is currently the best at doing some thing isn't that unusual(no where did I or Mr Gentile once claim only this recorder could get EVPs most of them can). ITs just this recorder is the most effective at doing so. People claim it has some manufacturing flaw but where's the proof? If you can't prove it its speculation and I still don't see any actual proof such a flaw exists.
As to the test being flawed I would recommend any number of books on magic tricks. A magician of reasonable skill is capable of manipulating information inside a sealed envelope using a number of published methods. Even given that Randi will not be present hardly proves no one else JREF sends would not have the talent.
Frankly this is a waste of my time and yours writting about this. You will see me as a ignorant believer acting on blind faith no matter what I say. I will see you as fanatics so desperate to prove your belief system you can't even listen to any evidence to the contrary. I've met my share of zealots in my time and its always nice to be reminded just how many of them think they are inteligent and superior to every one else. Good bye, and good luck with the whole single mindedness thing I've got better things to do with my time(watch paint dry, count ceiling tiles).
Frankly the hypocracy here is funny. I'm waiting for one of you to post according to the Book of Skepticism CHapter 1 Verse 1. You sound like religious nuts defending there beliefs not rational adults discussing a topic.
While its a waste(you can't see Randi as fallable) lets point out what the inteligent should not miss.
Yes Randi posted to his web site. Thats about it. Great communication there. LIke every other important detail about claims JREF felt no need to communciate to claiments this information. Of course this in the minds of the randi ites is perfectly acceptable. Kramer not being the person to email regarding the challenge wasn't important? Explain this please. To me it sounds ubsurd. Of course you'd probably rationalize it that we should read Randi's web site and his organization doesn't have to bother with proper communication.
As to the recorder whats your point? That one piece of equipment is currently the best at doing some thing isn't that unusual(no where did I or Mr Gentile once claim only this recorder could get EVPs most of them can). ITs just this recorder is the most effective at doing so. People claim it has some manufacturing flaw but where's the proof? If you can't prove it its speculation and I still don't see any actual proof such a flaw exists.
As to the test being flawed I would recommend any number of books on magic tricks. A magician of reasonable skill is capable of manipulating information inside a sealed envelope using a number of published methods. Even given that Randi will not be present hardly proves no one else JREF sends would not have the talent.
Frankly this is a waste of my time and yours writting about this. You will see me as a ignorant believer acting on blind faith no matter what I say. I will see you as fanatics so desperate to prove your belief system you can't even listen to any evidence to the contrary. I've met my share of zealots in my time and its always nice to be reminded just how many of them think they are inteligent and superior to every one else. Good bye, and good luck with the whole single mindedness thing I've got better things to do with my time(watch paint dry, count ceiling tiles).
I assume this is for me.
Excuse me, but what "Book of Skepticism" are you referring to? Just so we know what you expect us to do.
Your poor spelling makes it very hard to understand you.
Did Lou Gentile contact Randi and tell him of his own illness immediately after it happened?
Don't you think it is the most likely explanation? E.g., like a certain type of radio might, due to design flaws, once in a while switches bands?
What is it about the specifications of this particular piece of equipment that makes it the best?
The onus is on you to explain this. Not on us.
Please point out precisely how people can "directly interfere" with the test.
Excuse me, but what "Book of Skepticism" are you referring to? Just so we know what you expect us to do.
Your poor spelling makes it very hard to understand you.
Did Lou Gentile contact Randi and tell him of his own illness immediately after it happened?
Don't you think it is the most likely explanation? E.g., like a certain type of radio might, due to design flaws, once in a while switches bands?
What is it about the specifications of this particular piece of equipment that makes it the best?
The onus is on you to explain this. Not on us.
Please point out precisely how people can "directly interfere" with the test.
Sigh
why I bother I don't know but as I'm bored why not.
As to what book of skepticism I mean I hope your joking. As should be patently obvious the statement was sarcastic. Meant to draw a comparison between the average bible thumper who parrots bible quotes as evidence and the average Randi devotee who parrotes Randi's or other skeptics words like they are gospel.
As to Lou contacting Randi imediately no he didn't nor do I expect you thought he should. Did I expect Randi to email Mr Gentile from the hospital? Hardly. Yet Randi is not the only person working with JREF(unless I am very much mistaken). An email at some point from some one from JREF is entirely reasonable. Mr Gentile didn't immediately notify about his problems but some one associated with DVDR and The Lou Gentile Show obviously has made the effort unlike what JREF choose to. If your curious you can also find a complete copy of all communication between Mr Gentile and Randi at JREF.
As to how the test SPECIFICLY could be altered. Lets see the contents of an envelope could be altered or switched with another envelope to produce a false result where an accurate one exists. Does this make accurate testing impossible? Hardly but its a valid concern that needs to be considered.
As to the onus to explain the recorder sorry but your quite wrong. My statement is that anomolous voices appear that can specificly answer questions. If the offered explanation is to be random noises produced by flaws in the recorder and furthere that the recorder was discontinued for that reason some one should substantiate that claim. Saying its the more likely explanation isn't good enough frankly since the most likely explanation is not always true. Especially when this most likely explanation is weighed agains the observed phenomenon (how does that explain a name given with in a minute of asking for an entities name or other specific explanations). Also simply put the originaly posted arguement was that not only did the recorder have this problem but that it was discontinued because of it. Can any one substantiate this claim? Its not Panasonic's official stance(panasonic proclaimed it was discontinued because of improvements in technology). If you can't substantiate it don't ask me or any one else to take the statement seriously. As to why this recorder works better then any other I honestly don't know. Does that change how often it gets voices or the clarity? No.
Again this is a waste of time. Most of the people here won't consider any explanation except that I'm a gullable idiot who follows Mr Gentile blindly. Of course I don't think much more of the people who treat me like this.
why I bother I don't know but as I'm bored why not.
As to what book of skepticism I mean I hope your joking. As should be patently obvious the statement was sarcastic. Meant to draw a comparison between the average bible thumper who parrots bible quotes as evidence and the average Randi devotee who parrotes Randi's or other skeptics words like they are gospel.
As to Lou contacting Randi imediately no he didn't nor do I expect you thought he should. Did I expect Randi to email Mr Gentile from the hospital? Hardly. Yet Randi is not the only person working with JREF(unless I am very much mistaken). An email at some point from some one from JREF is entirely reasonable. Mr Gentile didn't immediately notify about his problems but some one associated with DVDR and The Lou Gentile Show obviously has made the effort unlike what JREF choose to. If your curious you can also find a complete copy of all communication between Mr Gentile and Randi at JREF.
As to how the test SPECIFICLY could be altered. Lets see the contents of an envelope could be altered or switched with another envelope to produce a false result where an accurate one exists. Does this make accurate testing impossible? Hardly but its a valid concern that needs to be considered.
As to the onus to explain the recorder sorry but your quite wrong. My statement is that anomolous voices appear that can specificly answer questions. If the offered explanation is to be random noises produced by flaws in the recorder and furthere that the recorder was discontinued for that reason some one should substantiate that claim. Saying its the more likely explanation isn't good enough frankly since the most likely explanation is not always true. Especially when this most likely explanation is weighed agains the observed phenomenon (how does that explain a name given with in a minute of asking for an entities name or other specific explanations). Also simply put the originaly posted arguement was that not only did the recorder have this problem but that it was discontinued because of it. Can any one substantiate this claim? Its not Panasonic's official stance(panasonic proclaimed it was discontinued because of improvements in technology). If you can't substantiate it don't ask me or any one else to take the statement seriously. As to why this recorder works better then any other I honestly don't know. Does that change how often it gets voices or the clarity? No.
Again this is a waste of time. Most of the people here won't consider any explanation except that I'm a gullable idiot who follows Mr Gentile blindly. Of course I don't think much more of the people who treat me like this.
tmackean
Thinker
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2004
- Messages
- 232
Kevin,
Actually, I think you made some valid points. No one's perfect - James Randi included. I don't have all the facts, but from the missives you've posted, I would come to the conclusion that there has been a little bit of understandable miscommunication, regardless of the staunch, argumentative defence that's been presented by some posters.
I imagine the JREF is quite small, so when people are leaving and principles are ill, a little bit of leeway is required.
Also, people of a skeptical bent, like anyone else, are not always happy to concede strongly held opinions - it's human nature. As much as I try and affect neutrality as a position when discussing the paranormal, I can't help but secretly think: "this is utter nonsense" (EVP included, of course). I THINK I'd be happy for my current understanding of the world to be challenged, but for some, skepticism crosses the line from methodology to belief system (not an accusation I can back up with hard evidence, by the way, just an opinion). Belief systems are hard to shake - and I think it isn't paranoid of Kevin to want a protocol that would rule out cheating by EITHER party. No reflection on the protocols to date, incidentally, which I haven't read.
That this thread veered into unwarranted abuse, occasionally, is a little sad....
Actually, I think you made some valid points. No one's perfect - James Randi included. I don't have all the facts, but from the missives you've posted, I would come to the conclusion that there has been a little bit of understandable miscommunication, regardless of the staunch, argumentative defence that's been presented by some posters.
I imagine the JREF is quite small, so when people are leaving and principles are ill, a little bit of leeway is required.
Also, people of a skeptical bent, like anyone else, are not always happy to concede strongly held opinions - it's human nature. As much as I try and affect neutrality as a position when discussing the paranormal, I can't help but secretly think: "this is utter nonsense" (EVP included, of course). I THINK I'd be happy for my current understanding of the world to be challenged, but for some, skepticism crosses the line from methodology to belief system (not an accusation I can back up with hard evidence, by the way, just an opinion). Belief systems are hard to shake - and I think it isn't paranoid of Kevin to want a protocol that would rule out cheating by EITHER party. No reflection on the protocols to date, incidentally, which I haven't read.
That this thread veered into unwarranted abuse, occasionally, is a little sad....
If you spend a little time here, you will discover that this is simply not true. Randi does receive criticism, also from fellow skeptics.
Did Lou Gentile at some point email Randi/JREF to let them know why he didn't respond? No? Don't you think it is terribly unfair of you to criticize Randi for not contacting Lou Gentile directly, when Lou Gentile didn't contact Randi as well?
How could the contents be altered or the envelope be switched? Please point to the part in the protocol that allows for these possibilities.
Does "improvements in technology" tell you that the technology was not exactly up to standard? It happens, you know: Companies do make bad products from time to time.
You have not given us any reason to think otherwise. You are not prepared to consider natural explanations, your excuses wrt the test are invalid and you seem to have a grudge against skeptics in particular.
Gr8wight
red-shirted crewman
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
- Messages
- 1,661
Of course it's a valid concern that needs to be not only considered, but addressed. That's why the challenge protocol needs to be negotiated between both parties. You and the JREF need to work together to come up with a protocol that will be satisfactory to both of you. If one side wants to include a specific control, or eliminate one, the reasons for that must be stated clearly and concisely. So far, it appears to me that Lou submitted a protocol. There were aspects of it that concerned Randi, so he suggested changes. And that's where you stand. There's a lot of negotiation to come. That is, if Lou intends to follow through with his application. If he intends to drop it, and tool around the Internets claiming Mr Randi wouldn't test him, then the course you are currently travelling is the right one.
If he intends to pursue the challenge but is, as yet, still unable to do so, then the best thing you could do is to just go away, and come back when Lou is ready to proceed.
macgyver
Bacontologist
- Joined
- May 4, 2006
- Messages
- 317
You honour us with your presence...
Was this meant to be ironic? I think that you are projecting here. The parallels you are drawing are much closer to you and your beloved Lou Gentile. However, just because you are familiar with that way of thinking, doesn't mean that it applies to the JREF. Do we all share a respect and admiration for James Randi? Of course we do! Do we hesitate to correct him when he's mistaken, or out and out wrong? NO! And one of the reasons Randi has earned our respect, is that he takes that criticism humbly and with mutual admiration, and updates his knowledge base.
That's what it is to be a skeptic. To question everything, and demand evidence and proof from those making extraordinary claims. A true skeptic is not trying to protect a "belief system", there's no Bible of Skepticism that we use to try and shoehorn our observations into to make them agree with scripture. If it sounds like we're all quoting from the same book, it's because the basic concept of skepticism is simple and universal: "Don't believe it, until it's been proven scientifically"
You keep harping on the "poor communication issue". What will it take to help you get past this? An open apology? A gift basket and card from Randi? I seem to recall in an earlier message of yours that you even blame your OWN EMAIL SYSTEM FOR DELETING JREF COMMUNICATION AS SPAM:
This is a result of YOU not configuring YOUR spam filter correctly, this has nothing at all to do with the JREF
Once Lou is up and about, then you can continue to negotiate the protocol. No testing will continue until both parties are satisfied.....next problem?
Part of the exercise is to understand where the voices are coming from, and whether or not there's a logical explanation (your explanation is anything but logical). This is why Occam's Razor is regularly applied in skeptical scientific inquiry. Here's a possible explanation for how voices could be answered:
Much EVP has been shown to have the simple explanation of being radio transmissions from devices such as baby monitors. Any electronic device can demodulate an AM or FM transmission, if the circuitry has a flaw that allows it to receive the radio transmission (to prove the simplicity of AM demodulation, make a crystal radio set this weekend, it will be especially good for EVP reception). If a microphone with radio transmitter was placed within range of the test, then it could pick up the question, transmit it to somebody speaking into a baby monitor, and the "answer" could be transmitted back to the Panasonic Digital recorder...
So here's a question: If these "spirits" can speak through electronic devices, is it necessary for you to audibly ask the questions? Couldn't you just write the question on a big card and hold it up? Then the "spirit" could answer through EVP? If you'd agree to this test methodology, then I think it might speed things up a bit towards getting the test done.
Agreed, you are wasting a lot of time. As for what most people here think of you, it is only based on the evidence you have presented. Lastly, I'm sorry your feelings were hurt, but what did you expect?
RSLancastr
www.StopSylvia.com
[Devil'sAdvocateMode]
This assumes that the "spirits" can see as well as hear, and that they are literate.
[/Devil'sAdvocateMode]
RSLancastr
www.StopSylvia.com
And then they can operate on whoever is responsible for the content on Lou's web site and give him or her some writing skills.
Now that the ad homs are out of the way...
I hope Lou gets the operation and that it is a total success.
I also hope that he and Randi can negotiate a protocol acceptable to all parties.
Silly Green Monkey
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
Is there no new commentary this week, or am I just missing something?
Click "James Randi Education Foundation"
(In Red at the top of the page)
(other links don't show it.)
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Nitpick. Randi doesn't actually have any personal access to the money, IIRC, it's held in trust on his behalf to hand out if the challenge is ever met.
Randi could quite easily make some easy money by just colluding with somone, and splitting the takings. After many years, however, he hasn't done that....
Flange Desire
Muse
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2005
- Messages
- 572
No problem Kev!
Don't get into a lather about it.
It is 100% normal for the 'paranormal community' to ignore the truth in these matters. It can't be helped - you can try to educate them all you like, but these fools are just stubbonly ignorant.
(excuse me while i catch up on the backlog - just returned from leave)
macgyver
Bacontologist
- Joined
- May 4, 2006
- Messages
- 317
Actually I think you missed my point.
Randi, as the result of a long and successful career, isn't in need of winning a prize of a million dollars. I wasn't suggesting that he'd need to win his own prize.
However, I WAS suggesting that KevinM and ilk could probably use the leg up.
My point was to illustrate that in terms of motivation for winning/losing Randi has little to actually "lose" by losing the challenge and Lou has everything to gain...
macgyver
Bacontologist
- Joined
- May 4, 2006
- Messages
- 317
Well, not surprisingly, Lou has withdrawn from the challenge, citing through KevinM that they "weren't going to pander to Randi's chest thumping" or some such bullocks..
I think they were upset that they couldn't use their defective digital recorder or something.
It's a shame, really, because I thought we'd actually get to see a test take place for once.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
No, I didn't think you were. As I said, *nitpick*.
The next paragraph was gratuitous musings of my own.