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Answering the Lou Gentile Issue

KevinM

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Jan 26, 2006
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Since Lou is obviously unable to respond(and I'm glad to see Mr. Randi acknowledges that and don't fault him on that count). Let me make a few observations. First in spite of the rules the wide feeling in the paranormal community is the following:
1) Randi doesn't really have the money
2) Randi will not pay up ever and will instead continue to offer rationalizations for any phenomenon insisting it didn't fit the criteria
3) Randi will demand sudden changes to protocol

Regardless of the accuracy of any of these statements the majority of people who believe in psychic phenomenon believe them. Several people have claimed to have passed the test, or to have been refused to be tested or some thing of the sort. By itself this is not proof of any thing. JREF's inconsistency in response and carelessness in communication does NOT lend any credence to the challenge. Sending a message via the contact form on the Radio Show web site as opposed to sending a direct email, sending via us mail, or simply calling is an obviously stupid way to communicate some thing of this importance. Any one can claim to be any one on it so when Lou got one claiming to be from James Randi he fairly reasonably disregarded it.

As to taking the time whats the problem? Do I really need to point out the ammount of jerking around thats gone on on JREFs side. Taking months to respond, not informing claiments of Krammer no longer handling claims or Randi's illness(sure its on the web site but in whats supposed to be an organization some one should be capable of this kind of basic communication don't expect people to rush to respond to you). Also as for changing things theres the slight detail of Randi rejecting the original protocol, deciding on a new one suggested by us and then sending the revision in an email who's subject line was apparently spam and we never received. Aside from which we've found a large problem with the new protocol after consulting a professional magician of our aquantance. Any one with a reasonable ammount of training as a magician should be able to see into, manipulate or change the contents of envelopes. While we are confident Randi will make sure we can not do this the very real question remains of what prevents some one from JREF from manipulating the envelopes. I"m sorry but promises of honesty aren't going to cut it any more then Randi would rely solely on a claiments word they won't manipulate the test. When Mr Gentile does recover we will be looking into the matter and trying to find a viable solution. JREF should in the mean time wait since they have no qualms about making others do so.
 
KevinM said:
JREF should in the mean time wait since they have no qualms about making others do so.
Click to expand...

Take a look at the Sylvia clock on the main page. You'll see waiting is not something to which we're unaccustomed.
 
KevinM, if you're associated with Lou Gentile, and you're concerned with proper communication, then why are you posting on an open forum rather than contacting Jeff Wagg at JREF directly?
 
noone from JREF will have to manipulate the envelopes as all rational human beings know psychic phenomena do not exist.....why would any skeptic bother? Just let them make fools of themselves, don't need anyone's help for that.....
 
Well

I would assume that Randi is capable of checking his own message board. Other wise it can wait for Lou to recover and deal with him directly. Sides this makes it a public matter instead of one sided comments from Mr Randi.

Now in regards to the kiddy answer about fiddling with envelopes. Are you joking? Seriously thats quite possibly the dumbest excuse you could possibly have given for why we should leave it wide open for cheating on JREF's side. You may think theres no need to cheat but as we beleive in the phenomenon exactly why should we trust that some one isn't going to try to protect the million dollars at stake? I'm not a fan of blind faith especially in an organization with a substantial ammount of money on the line. We need either a proper test the guarantees honesty on both sides or theres no point in continuing with this becuase no results in either direction will prove any thing.
 
Kevin, Mr. Randi rarely visits the forum. And, although some of his employees are regulars here on the forum, it is definitely not the place to post something, assuming it will be brought to his attention in a timely manner (if at all).

It is a good place to make a copy of something available for the public to read, but don't rely on it as a means of communicating with The Amazing One.

As far as the three common misconceptions you point out in your original post:

Common Misconception/Excuse #1) Randi doesn't really have the money

As has been mentioned both on this forum and in Mr. Randi's weekly column many times, the funds exist, as is easily proven. Have you taken the few minutes it would take to establish this?

Common Misconception/Excuse #2) Randi will not pay up ever and will instead continue to offer rationalizations for any phenomenon insisting it didn't fit the criteria

Randi insists that the protocol include results which are easily determined, with no need for judgement calls. If he and Mr. Gentile agree on such a protocol, there is no room for either party to weasel out of it. Either the test is passed, or it isn't.

Common Misconception/Excuse #3) Randi will demand sudden changes to protocol

The protocol is agreed to by both parties, in writing, ahead of time.

If you (or abnyone else) can come up with any examples of times when Mr. Randi has done this, many here would be interested in hearing about it.

Assuming that you are correct, in that the JREF could have handled communications better - so what? If I were someone with an actual, provable paranormal claim, I would patiently but firmly go through the process, document it publically as it happens, and see what happens.

After all, anyone who beats the challenge will end up with:

1. A Million Dollars
2. A ton of free publicity
3. The admiration and gratitude of fans of the paranormal everywhere

Sounds like its worth some patience.
 
RSLancastr said:
After all, anyone who beats the challenge will end up with:

1. A Million Dollars
2. A ton of free publicity
3. The admiration and gratitude of fans of the paranormal everywhere
Click to expand...

I would add to this list:
4. The gratitude and admiration of the Scientific community

Since you have just added to the body of knowledge something that was previously thought impossible. Once the scientific community can replicate the experiments multiple times, and have the results peer reviewed, you'll all go down in history like Newton or Einstein..

Technology and human progress will not have seen anything quite so important since the dawn of radio communications.

Then again.....you have to at least get through some simple paperwork...
 
perception and reality

The problem youre missing is the difference between perception and reality. Your answers are certainly the official answers to the issues raised. The problem is the paranormal community as a whole isn't buying those answers. A lot of it relies on what is in fact blind faith in a man who doesn't believe. As for an example thats easy. Mr Randi did eventually reject the original protocol. He didn't email Mr Gentile regarding this, Krammer didn't email Mr Gentile regarding this nor did any other representitive of JREF. Randi created an altered form based on a sugested alternate test from us and sent a copy to a radio show host but either didn't send one to Lou or it got mislabeled as spam in the subject field and was automaticly deleted. Randi then raised this as an example of Lou dodging the issue on a radio show. Thats not dodging thats mismanagment on JREF's part. As to sending it to Randi I could but why? He expects us to check his web site for updates and communication(no contact that the challenge was on hold, no contact Kramer was not handling them).
 
As to After Sucsess

I have to disagree with that list. If some one suceeds they would get:
1) A million dollars
2) The support of JREF and scientists that support its work
3) Derided by the scientists who don't
4) Treated as a messiah by some and the devil himself by others and facing death threats from both
 
KevinM said:
I have to disagree with that list. If some one suceeds they would get:
1) A million dollars
2) The support of JREF and scientists that support its work
3) Derided by the scientists who don't
4) Treated as a messiah by some and the devil himself by others and facing death threats from both
Click to expand...

#4 is a bit melodramatic don't you think?

As for #3, that's in essence the scientific process at work. Science wouldn't get anywhere if certain ideas weren't proven wrong. It's how science progresses.

There is no blind faith in somebody who chooses NOT to believe in something until it can be proven with EVIDENCE...

faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof (Webster)

Do you actually think Randi doesn't want you to prove him wrong? He doesn't need the million dollars, but I bet you could use a little jingle in the jeans...

Prove him wrong! That's the challenge! Every skeptic and scientist on the planet truly wants to see it happen! WE WANT YOU TO SUCCEED!

Then we want to study it, pick it apart, and understand it....

There's no conspiracy to keep your "truth" hidden...honestly!
 
You know for as inteligent as skeptics think they are you could use some work on your reading comprehension. People CLAIM to have passed the test isn't the same thing as people have passed it. The problem is that Randi has easy answers to every question of the sort but not every one takes him at his word on that. Between those rumors and the way the challenge has been handled so far its no suprise people don't beliee Randi won't pay up. Yes if some one passed legally Randi would be expected to pay up. Practicly theres little to stop him from denying the succsess and forcing a few decades of court battles over it.
 
KevinM said:
You know for as inteligent as skeptics think they are you could use some work on your reading comprehension. People CLAIM to have passed the test isn't the same thing as people have passed it. The problem is that Randi has easy answers to every question of the sort but not every one takes him at his word on that. Between those rumors and the way the challenge has been handled so far its no suprise people don't beliee Randi won't pay up. Yes if some one passed legally Randi would be expected to pay up. Practicly theres little to stop him from denying the succsess and forcing a few decades of court battles over it.
Click to expand...

To whom was this addressed?

You could employ the use of a spelling checker, it would help us with our inferior comprehension skills.
 
KevinM said:
Yes if some one passed legally Randi would be expected to pay up. Practicly theres little to stop him from denying the succsess and forcing a few decades of court battles over it.
Click to expand...
Do you know of any instances of someone who is suing him because of him not paying up after they passed the test?
 
Why are the paranormal apologists always so concerned with the legitimacy of the million dollar payout?

Just do the freakin' test, and worry about the money after you've won.

Even if the whole thing is rigged, what have you got to lose?

You obviously believe in what you believe in, so you should also consider it an easy win! If it turns out that you were right all along and JREF doesn't hold up it's end of the bargain, then you've got plenty of ammo to go to the media with and tar and feather them.

Go for it! You've got nothing to lose but a little bit of time and a modicum of effort.
 
This conversation is totally useless. Mr. Gentile is unable to undertake the challenge at this time due to his injury. We all wish Lou a speedy recovery, and at such a future time as he is healthy enough to resume his daily activities we will enjoy re-entering this discussion. Until then, all we are doing here is spinning wheels.

Vilifying the JREF and Randi is something that is routinely done by those who cannot, or will not undertake the challenge. Do not lead us to suspect that Mr. Gentile falls into that category. When he is well enough, he can speak for himself, and then we shall see (or hear) what we shall see (or hear).

edited to add: I am a big fan of Blind Faith. I wish they had recorded more than one album.
 
With out IT

what do we have to gain? Frankly I don't think JREF declaring some one psychic is going to have a great impact on world events or the scientific community as a whole. The same people who don't believe will continue not to believe and scientists will continue to dismiss it. Science for all that it should be has never been quick to accept a new theory even when its been tested over and over again. For what skeptics seem to think I don't agree that skeptics are more likely to change there oppinions then religious people or beleivers(and the idea that religion does not change over time is such a patently ubsurd one I've never understood why any one believes it five minutes perusing the history of Catholicism can prove it wrong(to give one example) it just takes time. Often in both cases the time it takes is the length of time before the old guard dies or retires and new minds not as rigid in old beliefs can take over.

As to what we have to lose how about the time, money and the effort involved. Its up to us to cover travel expenses and the like so in fact we do have some thing fundamental to lose in wasting time chasing what may in fact be a scam of some sort. Arguing Randi would be happy to lose the money is in fact a non helpful arguement. IT requires us to believe his motives are on the up and up and that unlike most other people he isn't so set in his beliefs he'll never except the paranormal just because it doesn't fit his world view. He may think he is adaptive and willing to change but that doesn't mean he'll admit he's wrong if he's proven wrong. He certainly seems stuborn enough.
 
Gr8wight said:
This conversation is totally useless. Mr. Gentile is unable to undertake the challenge at this time due to his injury. We all wish Lou a speedy recovery, and at such a future time as he is healthy enough to resume his daily activities we will enjoy re-entering this discussion. Until then, all we are doing here is spinning wheels.


edited to add: I am a big fan of Blind Faith. I wish they had recorded more than one album.
Click to expand...

It appeared that KevinM is somehow working closely with Mr. Gentile based on his language early in this thread. If he is not authorized to speak on behalf of anyone involved with Lou Gentiles application, then I suppose you are right.
 
OK, I'm going to try and paraphrase KevinM's concerns a bit more concisely. Please correct me if I'm wrong, KevinM:

1) The Challenge rules as publshed are all well and good. Anyone with at least half a brain can understand them.

2) The PERCEPTION of how the Challenge is managed has been hugely negatively influenced by the paranormal community, especially in the electronic media.

3) Randi/JREF does not address this issue of misperception adequately. Responses are slow, inadequate, not widely distributed, and/or absent.

4) The twain shall never meet until the issues ARE addressed, by some means as yet to be determined.

Is that it?
 
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