Penn & Teller on Alternative Medicine

[geni]

I have to spell everything out for you? I mean synthetic chemicals. They add very bad stuff. Christ...

Define "synthetic chemical".

 

[Amorelli]

Well, then apparently the peolpe that pop the bad, chemical pills are much better aligned to the needs of their odies, since the same studies show that these people get better after taking the evil drugs from big pharma.

Hence, my guess is that the peolpe that take artifical medicatio understand much better what health is all about. They are much more able to do whatever it takes to get healthy again - be that due to drugs, life style changes or a combination of both.

I'm just glad that both my parents and I are so much smarter than the dumb'!*&"s that rely on natural remedies. Saved my life more than once.

1. You're adding words in my mouth, everything you just said is complete speculation. I mean during the studies that are conducted with natural and conventional medicine. I'm saying if people want their natural medicine to show signs of healing then they must also change their lifestyle, then the remedy can help your body towards a cure. We don't know what goes on during the studies and we know the people love their junk food...conventional medicine or not.

Your theory that natural medicine people eat junk and conventional people do not, is the most absurd theory I have ever seen. Easily debunked....just look around.

 

[Zep]

We have a troll, folks...

 

[Amorelli]

Define "synthetic chemical".

Are you kidding me? I have no idea why I argue on this forum. I'm done after this. At this point we just have to agree to disagree.

http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/nicotineinhaler/a/cigingredients.htm
Here is a list of the chemicals

Synthetic means something that doesn't isn't natural. If you add 500 chemicals and then burn them to create 4000 more then one can conclude that some of those chemicals aren't very natural.

Infact there are synthetic chemicals in your food! They aren't healthy either. I eat organic.

So maybe you know now what they are? Yes there are chemicals in marijuana but they are natural, unless someone added something to them. Yes my body is chemicals but they are natural and thats why I supply natural chemicals to help my body and I don't add anything foreign to my body like synthetic chemcial pills.

 

[Rasmus]

1. You're adding words in my mouth, everything you just said is complete speculation.

No, it follows quite nicely from what you claimed.

I mean during the studies that are conducted with natural and conventional medicine.

Whatever you meant: Proper, evidence based (aka REAL) medicine works, wheras the rest fails to show any effect.

I'm saying if people want their natural medicine to show signs of healing then they must also change their lifestyle, then the remedy can help your body towards a cure.

You said the same thing about chemical medication, right?

We don't know what goes on during the studies and we know the people love their junk food...conventional medicine or not.

Yes. Exactly!

And the results of these studies show that conventional medicine shows better results! Since you claim it's at least partly a behavioural issue that means that the people that take conventional medicine must be behaving better than those who take natural medication.

Your theory that natural medicine people eat junk and conventional people do not, is the most absurd theory I have ever seen. Easily debunked....just look around.

Please, do try to keep up.

It is not my theory, it would just be a logical conclusion if what you asserted was true.

Rasmus.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I mean synthetic chemicals.

I hope you realize that synthetic chemicals have EXACTLY the same properties as natural chemicals.

 

[Amorelli]

We have a troll, folks...

haha, yup. I guess you guys define a troll as: someone who disagrees with the groupthink. I guess thats a troll? So I guess I am? Now I know why you guys are so narrow-minded, you guys just call BS on anybody who disagrees with you and then call him a troll. You guys are also very immature during debates. I suggest not being so angry during a debate and calling people names and insulting. I don't think James Randi would be proud.

 

[Amorelli]

No, it follows quite nicely from what you claimed.



Whatever you meant: Proper, evidence based (aka REAL) medicine works, wheras the rest fails to show any effect.



You said the same thing about chemical medication, right?



Yes. Exactly!

And the results of these studies show that conventional medicine shows better results! Since you claim it's at least partly a behavioural issue that means that the people that take conventional medicine must be behaving better than those who take natural medication.



Please, do try to keep up.

It is not my theory, it would just be a logical conclusion if what you asserted was true.

Rasmus.

No i'm saying conventional medicine gets rid of the symptoms and so it looks like its cured! But why do people never get off em them in general? Natural medicine can cure but you also need to change your lifestyle.

I didn't say the samething about conventional medicine. conventional medicine will keep you with your problem and you will constantly need to buy more. You've seen them on the commercial with their side effects (they talk so fast and there are so many). I also showed you that many people die because of them or get even worse off. They HAVE proven to suppress the symptoms, if that's your goal then fine. Natural medicine is about getting to the root of the problem, add in a good mix of healthy diet and excersize and you're a winner. Now not all natural medicine works but things like cleanses, and fasting can.

 

[geni]

http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/nicotineinhaler/a/cigingredients.htm
Here is a list of the chemicals

Synthetic means something that doesn't isn't natural. If you add 500 chemicals and then burn them to create 4000 more then one can conclude that some of those chemicals aren't very natural.

Forrest fires are natural.

Infact there are synthetic chemicals in your food! They aren't healthy either. I eat organic.

You do know that "organic food" can be sprayed with synthetic chemicals? In ay case I can sythensise quite a collection of the chemicals that accoure in organic food.

So maybe you know now what they are?

The whole natural unatural thing went out of thew window in 1828 when Friedrich Woehler synthersised urea.

Yes there are chemicals in marijuana but they are natural, unless someone added something to them. Yes my body is chemicals but they are natural and thats why I supply natural chemicals to help my body and I don't add anything foreign to my body like synthetic chemcial pills.

Again the most toxic substances on the planet are natural.

 

[Rustle]

I'm pretty sure Amorelli is just looking for an excuse to not take his "evil, synthetic" haldol.

 

[thaiboxerken]

No, amorelli, the fact that you ignore evidence that doesn't support your absurd beliefs is what has led to your label as troll.

Now, go play with your natural stick until it spits.

 

[geni]

No i'm saying conventional medicine gets rid of the symptoms and so it looks like its cured! But why do people never get off em them in general?

People get off all sorts of stuff antiboitics, antivirals (depnding on what they are suffering from), antifungals and of course various anti cancer stuff.

Natural medicine can cure but you also need to change your lifestyle.

Evidences? How do you rule out it just being the lifestyle changes?

I didn't say the samething about conventional medicine. conventional medicine will keep you with your problem and you will constantly need to buy more.

Not true.

Now not all natural medicine works but things like cleanses, and fasting can.

Evidences?

 

[capall]

You've seen them on the commercial with their side effects (they talk so fast and there are so many).

Conventional meds have side effects because they actually do something to the body, if some natural meds have no side effects its because they are not actually doing anything its just a placebo.

 

[Rasmus]

No i'm saying conventional medicine gets rid of the symptoms and so it looks like its cured!

You know what you are talking about.

I am currently fighting off a virus (sans medication) and during the initial stages I had to deal with an additional throat infection. A week of antibiotics took care of that. The infection was gone along with the symtpoms.

And guess what: All the mild, herbal stuff I tried to reduce the pain didn't do ◊◊◊◊! After not being able to swallow for about three days a heavy dose of diclofenac-natrium took care of the pain. (Enough, at least, to allow me to drink again and get the antibiotics down without choking and fighting various ugly reflexes. (I did try a few others, less strong painkillers, too, as per my doctors recommendation, but they wouldn't do, either.)

But why do people never get off em them in general? Natural medicine can cure but you also need to change your lifestyle.

Please provide evidence for the claim that people in general do never get off their medication! I was taking antibiotics for just over a week, ad I needed two doses of painkillers, after that I could cope without.

I didn't say the samething about conventional medicine. conventional medicine will keep you with your problem and you will constantly need to buy more.

Liar!

You've seen them on the commercial with their side effects (they talk so fast and there are so many). I also showed you that many people die because of them or get even worse off.

It has been explained to you why this is quite irrelevant.

They HAVE proven to suppress the symptoms, if that's your goal then fine.

That is indeed one of my goals. As long as I am not symptom free it just so happens that I am still ill - by definition.

Natural medicine is about getting to the root of the problem,

The root of my current problem is called "viruses"; the root of my last problem is usually referred to as "bacteria". Antibiotics kill the latter. It is sometimes quite advisable to make use of that.

add in a good mix of healthy diet and excersize and you're a winner. Now not all natural medicine works but things like cleanses, and fasting can.

You are claiming that fasting works against ... what?

 

[Amorelli]

You can still be ill but not have symptoms.

Why is it irrelevant how many people die? The same doctors are telling you whats good and what isn't, are the same ones that kill hundreds of thousands of people.

Btw I need to clear something up. i'm mostly talking about chronic disease and illness. Obviously something that will go away whether you take natural remedies or conventional or nothing is kind of a wash and proves nothing either way. I'm talking about whether chronic disease can actually be cured. I'm not an expert with a PhD and you guys aren't either (I don't think). I supplied you guys a link with PhDs and MDs talking about the harms of the medical industry. Obviously other doctors will disagree and so again we have a wash.

I also suggest watching the movies, they are interesting unless you're afraid of ruining your picture of the government. Obviously this doesn't relate to foreigners.

How about a truce? You guys can claim that conventional works and I can claim its kills. You can claim natural doesn't work and I can claim it does and it's safer. Nothing is going to be solved and i've been at this for hours.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Amorelli, you are the same type of person that would eat mandrake root just because it's natural, aren't you?

 

[thaiboxerken]

How about a truce? You guys can claim that conventional works and I can claim its kills. You can claim natural doesn't work and I can claim it does and it's safer. Nothing is going to be solved and i've been at this for hours.

The problem here is that you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Real medicine works and has a multitude of evidence to support it. There is hardly any place in the modern world that hasn't been influenced in a positive way by modern conventions of medicine. Vaccinations stop diseases from killing billions of people, medical research and knowlege stops food poisoning from being a major problem, people are living longer than they ever have in history and quality of life is better than it's ever been. You have no case, you have no truce because you have no truth.

 

[Rasmus]

You can still be ill but not have symptoms.

I know I am still ill; and it will take several more weeks to change. That I do not suffer from the remaining symptoms is a good thing. It is a godo thing that the painful symptoms are no longer bothering me.

That aside, you will have to excuse me for trusting my doctor more than you. (Or my ex-doctor who tried to up-sell me some homoeopathic crapp, but that's a different story ...)

Why is it irrelevant how many people die?

Because it has nothing to do with this discussion. Not unlike plain crashes, attacks by poisonous snakes and swimming pool accidents.

The same doctors are telling you whats good and what isn't, are the same ones that kill hundreds of thousands of people.

Are you willing to tell that to the face of my doctor? You had better be able to prove that he kills people...

Btw I need to clear something up. i'm mostly talking about chronic disease and illness.

So you're backpaddling?

Obviously something that will go away whether you take natural remedies or conventional or nothing is kind of a wash and proves nothing either way.

Yes. But you will of course realize that there are things that will not just go away?

I was unable to drink anything out of sheer pain for just 3 days, the antibiotics only kicked in after 4 or 5 days - and I couldn't have taken them any more without the painkillers. Google suggests that you will die after about two weeks without water. Not everything goes way all by itself ...

I'm talking about whether chronic disease can actually be cured.

Up until now, you clearly weren't.

I'm not an expert with a PhD and you guys aren't either (I don't think). I supplied you guys a link with PhDs and MDs talking about the harms of the medical industry. Obviously other doctors will disagree and so again we have a wash.

This still has no bearing whatsoever on whether individual herbal / natural / chinese or other alternative medication will improve specific conditions.

I also suggest watching the movies, they are interesting unless you're afraid of ruining your picture of the government. Obviously this doesn't relate to foreigners.

¿eh?

How about a truce? You guys can claim that conventional works and I can claim its kills. You can claim natural doesn't work and I can claim it does and it's safer.

Again, pay attention:

You guys can claim that conventional works

Studies back this up! At least for some medications for some conditions.

and I can claim its kills.

No, you can't. Medicine will not save or cure everybody, and nobody claimed it would. Misapplication can be very dangerous, and in fact lethal. Certain treatments may well be dangerous and certain trends in medicine are problematic to say the least. Then, some people are just being dumb about things.

None of which justifies the bold statement that traditional medicine would kill. Making that claim is as unjustified as claiming that traffic kills people without further qualifications.

You can claim natural doesn't work

That, too, is a very broad statement. If you claim that a specific "natural treatment" can cure a specific condition, feel free to point that out and provide proof! In some cases, you might well be right.

I can claim it does and it's safer

Without truckloads of further qualifications to that claim, you are still wrong.

Nothing is going to be solved and i've been at this for hours.

Things will be solved fairly quickly if you provide the evidence to back up your claims.

Rasmus.

 

[Kochanski]

No i'm saying conventional medicine gets rid of the symptoms and so it looks like its cured! But why do people never get off em them in general? Natural medicine can cure but you also need to change your lifestyle.

I didn't say the samething about conventional medicine. conventional medicine will keep you with your problem and you will constantly need to buy more. You've seen them on the commercial with their side effects (they talk so fast and there are so many). I also showed you that many people die because of them or get even worse off. They HAVE proven to suppress the symptoms, if that's your goal then fine. Natural medicine is about getting to the root of the problem, add in a good mix of healthy diet and excersize and you're a winner. Now not all natural medicine works but things like cleanses, and fasting can.

Evidence?

You are spouting the same old tired conspiracy theories that every wandering woo does on "big pharma" and conventional medicine. We have heard it all before and guess what, nope, still not true.

All things contain chemicals whether manufactured in a lab or harvested from a plant. In fact many conventional medicine use natural things, sometimes they are synthesized versions of natural things, but the benefit of them is that the doses are controlled. Each dose has the same measured amount. Those dosages and medications have been tested and all known side effects are noted.

"Natural medicines" do not have these controls. Dosages can vary widely within the same bottle. There is no control over their manufacture so contaminants can be a problem and testing is not done. Remember a few years ago the tryptophan problems? People died or were severely disabled after taking contaminated tryptophan supplements? Think natural medicines that are unregulated are safe, do you?

How do you know people don't die taking natural medicine? Any studies done to back that up?

You go on about how conventional medicine only treats symptoms, well yes, some medicine only treat symptoms because some things can not be cured with medicine. There is no cure for a cold, however, if you take a decongestant and you can breathe easier and sleep better, then you get the rest you need to help your immune system to fight the cold.

Can natural medicine reliably regulate diabetes? Can natural medicine reliably regulate high blood pressure? These things can not be cured, but I challenge you to find a natural "cure" or even a natural way to regulate either of these reliably.

Yes, there is lots of information about drug side effects, they know about possible side effects because these medicines have been extensively tested and they are responsible and let everyone know what the possible side effects are, so that people will be aware and stop using the medication and see their doctor if they occur. Just because they list the side effects does not mean that everyone will experience them, indeed if the side effects occurred too often and were life threatening, the drug would not be available.

What natural medicines are about getting to the root of a problem? Name a few. Give examples and show studies that show they cure any disease. Again we need evidence.

You need to put aside your paranoia, dude. It may cause you serious harm some day.

 

[hcmom]

The same doctors are telling you whats good and what isn't, are the same ones that kill hundreds of thousands of people.

Hmmmm...Seven years ago, my Dad started having severe pain in his lower back and legs. He pretty much ignored the pain, taking asprin sometimes, for 6 months. When he could no longer walk, my Mother finally talked him into going to the doctor, where he was diagnosed with soft tissue sarcoma, which had gotten too close to too many internal organs for an operation to be safe, especially in his extremely weakened condition. The doctor said "What would have been good for you is to have come in 5 months ago." Unfortunately, he said it about a month too late, and my Dad died 4 weeks later. Obviously, the doctor and asprin killed my Dad.