The "Voluntary Human Extinction Movement" Poll

[RandFan]

One more point. I came back to the forum after a 6 week haitus to take a break from work. I've got to sign off tonight and stay away for awhile.

I will happily read your response but I won't be able to respond for at least a few weeks. I appologize about that.

 

[Huntster]

So we control viruses and infectious diseases. We control populations of pests and vectors. We manipulate nature all the time. Should we stop doing all that because it's the natural order?

Of course not. We're defending ourselves as a species by doing so.

At the same time, we can't curse God when we can no longer do so, either.

Using "it's nature" as a reason against population control logically suggests we should. We should also do away with surgery, medicine and birth control too while we're at it.

Absolutely not. Population control advocates would recommend that. I'm not a population control freak.

Again, conversely, when our feeble surgeries, medicines, an birth control measures don't work, we shouldn't curse God.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Yup. I've seen plenty of it.

I've also seen plenty of Hispanic gang warfare and Mexican originated organized crime.

Every culture has its bad points. I'll take the bad with the good in this case if it means this country lightens up a little bit.

No, thanks. I've seen enough bad. I can't tolerate seeing the same **** happen to Alaska that happened to California.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
It's been a while. I moved away from the Hispanic neighborhood I grew up in over 30 years ago.

I just moved into a highly-hispanic part of the country. So far I haven't seen anything I don't like.

Sounds like you moved into a good neighborhood. Stay there and defend it.

India has agricultural problems that China does not.[/URL]

So you agree that agricultural production is finite and that uncontrolled population growth will cause problems with feeding everybody eventually (though after other major problems)?

It's finite because of interference or the lack of farming resources.

The problem isn't growing food. The problem is sombitches keeping it from the hungry, preventing irrigation, thwarting transportation, or otherwise ****ing the situation up.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
The point is that we don't have the agricultural problems that other nations have, and many agricultural problems aren't so much growing food in a tough environment, but building and supporting the infrastructure to do so.

I submit that you start with the infrastructure, THEN you rapidly expand your population. That would make more sense than just recklessly having human litters and hoping God (or technology) will provide later.

I submit:

1) Kill the bastards who are keeping Africans poor and keeping food from reaching them.

2) Afterwards, help well drilling and irrigation infrastructure in North Africa

3) Repeat in North Korea

4) Stop blaming God

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Fair enough. You are reliant on the agricultural, transportation, and retail industries.

As do most people.

Sorry. That ain't my problem. I suggest you folks work yourselves out of it.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Go ahead and specialize. Just be aware that you don't know how to serve your own most basic needs, and are reliant on others to do so for you.

If you choose to be that way, more power to you.

I choose otherwise.

I am certainly not alone there. Not by a long shot. As I said, civilization depends on a lot of food production by a small amount of people.

Fine. If you like it like that, live with it.

Again, be aware that you are relying on other folks for something that you can't live more than three weeks without.

(Where do you get your water? You can only live three days without that......)

Originally Posted by Huntster :
This place is literally frozen for 265 days per year. Not only is agriculture possible, it can thrive.

What is grown?

Most vegetables that you are familiar with.

How is it grown?

Similar to most North American locations.

Can it sustain large populations?

Yup.

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I find most human population control theories more dangerous than our ability to feed ourselves.

Those who wish to control population should start with themselves, not those who disagree with them.

And that is YOUR opinion - which you are welcome to. I agree that people who advocate human extinction should lead the charge personally. I might add that because I don't believe in overpopulation, I'll never have children. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Your money may be where your mouth is, but your heart and soul lack.

Nothing is more special and meaningful than children.

 

[Huntster]

...I don't see the point you're making. Do you think there's a good reason to believe that human infants feel that they have a right to exist where gorillas do not?...

If we consider gorillas so precious (and most of us do), why would we consider a child any less?

 

[Polaris]

Your money may be where your mouth is, but your heart and soul lack.

Nothing is more special and meaningful than children.

That's your perception. I personally find peace and quiet, the opportunity for sponteneity, and travel to be infinitely more meaningful and special than children. I hate kids - I find them repulsive and grating, can't stand to be around them.

 

[Huntster]

That's your perception. I personally find peace and quiet, the opportunity for sponteneity, and travel to be infinitely more meaningful and special than children. I hate kids - I find them repulsive and grating, can't stand to be around them.

I live in the woods. Peace and quiet are right out on the porch.

Funny, I enjoy kids tremendously, but absolutely hate travel (not a nice, long drive, but travel to other countries, or down to the states).

Airplanes suck, airports suck even more, and I haven't found a place to visit worth the trouble, expense, and inconvenience of getting there.

When you live in paradise, you just don't need to travel.

 

[Roboramma]

If we consider gorillas so precious (and most of us do), why would we consider a child any less?

I didn't say that we should concider a child to be any less precious.

 

[Roboramma]

4) Stop blaming God

Huh? Who's blaming god?

Sorry. That ain't my problem. I suggest you folks work yourselves out of it.

Work our way out of what? How is the division of labour a problem?
You aren't entirely self-sufficient. Where did you get your computer? Who built your house and installed the wiring? Who built the road that leads to it? Where did you get your farming equipment? Your fertalizer if you use it, and pesticides?
It's nice that you grow your own food, and I find that sort of cool. But it certainly doesn't give you a right to look down on the rest of us. The things that allow you to live are brought to you through a system that makes use of the labours of others like Polaris.
If it weren't for people who didn't grow their own food, you wouldn't have access to any of those things, or at the least your access to them would be much more difficult. How many roads could be built and maintained if everyone had to spend their time farming? How many power stations built, or power lines put up?

To suggest that you are self-sufficient, and that the rest of us not following that lifestyle choise is a problem is naive to say the least. If it weren't for people not following your lifestyle, your lifestyle would be impossible.
Of course this is true in reverse as well. And I'm not trying to attack the lifestyle that you have.
Just that you get off your high horse.

 

[Roboramma]

<Post about animal rights and stuff.>

Hey RandFan, it's cool, I'm happy not to get in to this whole thing right now anyway.

I'd just like to say that I think our main disagreement is on what gives a person rights. You suggest that it's "being a moral agent", that is, feeling that he deserves those rights.

I disagree. I don't want to debate this right now, mainly because I'm low on sleep, but I'll just say that I find this to be at least as arbitrary as any reason I've offered.

Something to ponder, anyway. I'm happy to get back into this when you get back. Just PM me if you feel like it. Or not.

 

[Polaris]

I live in the woods. Peace and quiet are right out on the porch.

Funny, I enjoy kids tremendously, but absolutely hate travel (not a nice, long drive, but travel to other countries, or down to the states).

Airplanes suck, airports suck even more, and I haven't found a place to visit worth the trouble, expense, and inconvenience of getting there.

When you live in paradise, you just don't need to travel.

I think people can be drawn into 2 groups: those who love children, and those who love travel. If money was not an object, I'd spend all my time abroad and only fly back into the US once in a while to maintain my citizenship. And there are more modes of travel than airlines - there are also sea vessels too.

Your idea of paradise is apparently different from mine - something I dislike as much as children is cold weather (it's one major reason I moved to Texas).

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
4) Stop blaming God

Huh? Who's blaming god?

Well, KelvinG, to start:

Can you imagine a God that would answer a prayer to save the soul of a heathen like me, but let innocent children all over the world die from starvation.

There are lots more where that came from............

Sorry. That ain't my problem. I suggest you folks work yourselves out of it.

Work our way out of what? How is the division of labour a problem?

It offers wonderful economic benefits, as well as horrible economic disaster when it breaks down.

You aren't entirely self-sufficient. Where did you get your computer?

Dell.

Who built your house and installed the wiring?

Me.

Who built the road that leads to it?

Me.

Where did you get your farming equipment?

Bought it from my wife's cousin.

Your fertalizer if you use it, and pesticides?

I don't use pesticides. My fertilizer comes from a local Alaska company.

It's nice that you grow your own food, and I find that sort of cool. But it certainly doesn't give you a right to look down on the rest of us. The things that allow you to live are brought to you through a system that makes use of the labours of others like Polaris.

I'm not completely self-sufficient, but I am more so than most. What's more, once you have much of your infrastructure (equipment, tools, ammo, fencing, etc.) you become even less reliant on others.

When tough times come, I'm better prepared to weather them out.

Africans and North Koreans, for example, have been prevented from setting themselves up to prevent starvation. AGAIN, that's more a political problem, not an agricultural problem.

It's not about me. I'm fine.

It's about them, isn't it?

How many roads could be built and maintained if everyone had to spend their time farming? How many power stations built, or power lines put up?

If the political system won't allow it, none of it happens.

To suggest that you are self-sufficient, and that the rest of us not following that lifestyle choise is a problem is naive to say the least. If it weren't for people not following your lifestyle, your lifestyle would be impossible.
Of course this is true in reverse as well. And I'm not trying to attack the lifestyle that you have.
Just that you get off your high horse.

This derail started as an argument regarding agriculture in China and India. It is now about my homestead. Shall we go deeper? Maybe my religious faith?

 

[Huntster]

...I'd spend all my time abroad and only fly back into the US once in a while to maintain my citizenship.....

Do you have to spend a certain amount of time in the states in order to maintain citizenship?

I didn't think so, but I could be wrong.............

 

[Polaris]

Do you have to spend a certain amount of time in the states in order to maintain citizenship?

I didn't think so, but I could be wrong.............

I'm not entirely sure - I heard it a few times that if you're out of the country for 3 consecutive months that you forfeit citizenship. It could be BS but I'm not gonna take my chances - though it would make it easier if strolling into the nearest American embassy will suffice.

 

[RandFan]

Something to ponder, anyway. I'm happy to get back into this when you get back. Just PM me if you feel like it. Or not.

Hey Robo,

I'm just sticking my head in for a moment. It's cool. I don't think we have to debate it further. I'll just say that in my estimation nothing "gives a person rights." I don't buy into "god given", "natural" or any other kind of right.

"Arbitary"? I don't think so but that's fine. If buy "arbitrary" you mean as valid or rational as any other reason then I would have to disagree but it won't hurt my feelings that you disagree. Reasonable people can disagree and you are certainly a reasonable person. I'd like to think that I am also.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Do you have to spend a certain amount of time in the states in order to maintain citizenship?

I didn't think so, but I could be wrong.............

I'm not entirely sure - I heard it a few times that if you're out of the country for 3 consecutive months that you forfeit citizenship. It could be BS but I'm not gonna take my chances - though it would make it easier if strolling into the nearest American embassy will suffice.

Oh, I can assure you that it's not 3 months. Maybe a year, but I even doubt that.

I'm pretty sure that if you're born in the USA, you're a citizen unless you renounce it.

 

[Huntster]

....I'll just say that in my estimation nothing "gives a person rights." I don't buy into "god given", "natural" or any other kind of right.

Sorry to butt in here, but "rights" must be either "God given" or "natural".

 

[RandFan]

Sorry to butt in here, but "rights" must be either "God given" or "natural".

Contestant: I'll take arrogant assumptions and unfounded claims for $400 Alex.

Alex: Answer, "it is true by virtue of my saying it is true".

Contestant: Who is Huntster?

Alex: Correct.

 

[RandFan]

Sorry to butt in here, but "rights" must be either "God given" or "natural".

I'd ask you to demonstrate this but I think we both know that this is simply a belief.

Heb 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[bigred]

[

That's your perception. I personally find peace and quiet, the opportunity for sponteneity, and travel to be infinitely more meaningful and special than children. I hate kids - I find them repulsive and grating, can't stand to be around them.

We really should plan a community - or at least drink together.

 

[American]

Voluntary Human Extinction won't work, there are always some that can only reproduce.

Not only that, but Darwin dictates that those who reproduce... have a tendency to reproduce.

Those who choose not to reproduce are actually perpetuating the species!

 

[Rob Lister]

[
We really should plan a community - or at least drink together.

Please define your community border's well.

I happen to like kids. While they are quite expensive (currently paying tuition to GMU and expect to pay to two others in the future), they are the reason I exist. I didn't know that before they existed but I certainly do now.