• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Randi's Zener card prediction.

JPK

Graduate Poster
JPK
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
1,870
Good evening.
I am a very amateur conjuror. I have several of Randi’s lectures on VHS and he often does a demonstration using the 5 different Zener cards. He hands them to someone in the audience and has them shuffled, and two selected, unknown the the shuffler, stuffed in an envelope and Randi predicts the cards chosen and their location in the envelope.
I love this effect. I am glad to say I can’t figure it out. Just wondering if everyone else knows how this is done and for some reason I can’t see it. Generally, after seeing something a second, or sometimes a third time I can reproduce it. This one baffles me and I am kinda glad.
JPK
 
JPK said:
Good evening.
I am a very amateur conjuror. I have several of Randi’s lectures on VHS and he often does a demonstration using the 5 different Zener cards. He hands them to someone in the audience and has them shuffled, and two selected, unknown the the shuffler, stuffed in an envelope and Randi predicts the cards chosen and their location in the envelope.
I love this effect. I am glad to say I can’t figure it out. Just wondering if everyone else knows how this is done and for some reason I can’t see it. Generally, after seeing something a second, or sometimes a third time I can reproduce it. This one baffles me and I am kinda glad.
JPK
Click to expand...
Well, I can't tell you how it's done. First of all, it's against the rules, and secondly I have no idea.

But I can tell you that I was that "someone in the audience" once. So it is not done by that someone being an accomplice. Great trick, btw.
 
Good morning Ririon.

Ririon said:
Well, I can't tell you how it's done. First of all, it's against the rules, and secondly I have no idea.

But I can tell you that I was that "someone in the audience" once. So it is not done by that someone being an accomplice. Great trick, btw.
Click to expand...
Well I wasn't ruling the possibility of an accomplice out, since he was trying to prove the point that anyone can be fooled, and of course that it is wrong to try to apply statistical probabilities to a trick.

JPK
 
As Rion said, it's against the rules to exlain it. But it's usually difficult to know how something is done based solely on a description such as the one you gave. I can think of 2-3 methods off the top of my head that would match your description. But I wouldn't count on any of them being the one Randi used because there's too much information missing.

Just a few examples of missing information that could be important: how was the 'someone in the audience' selected, who shuffled the cards, were they free to shuffle anyway they wanted, how were the 2 cards selected, who stuffed them in the envelop, who opened the envelope, how was the envelope opened, when was the prediction made, when did you know there was a prediction, and many other details that may have seemed so insigficant at the time that you don't even remember them.
 
As I recall, this particular trick is a method of his own invention. He does the trick in the widely available video of his Princeton lecture.

If I recall correctly, an audience member is given the cards, told to select two without looking at them, and place them in an envelope provided. The envelope is sealed, and (if I recall the one viewing I had correctly) Randi produces another envelope with two cards in it. He asks the audience member to present the cards that were not in the envelope. Randi's envelope is then shown to contain the other two cards in the set. Not only that, but they are shown to be in the envelope in the same order as in the envelope the audience member has (the audience member does the opening of his own envelope).

Can anyone tell how accurate my memory of this is?
 
Bob Klase said:
As Rion said, it's against the rules to exlain it. But it's usually difficult to know how something is done based solely on a description such as the one you gave. I can think of 2-3 methods off the top of my head that would match your description. But I wouldn't count on any of them being the one Randi used because there's too much information missing.

Just a few examples of missing information that could be important: how was the 'someone in the audience' selected, who shuffled the cards, were they free to shuffle anyway they wanted, how were the 2 cards selected, who stuffed them in the envelop, who opened the envelope, how was the envelope opened, when was the prediction made, when did you know there was a prediction, and many other details that may have seemed so insigficant at the time that you don't even remember them.
Click to expand...
It has been a few years, and memory isn't perfect, but in my case: I think he pretty much selected me. I was sitting in the front row. I shuffled the five (large thick cardboard zener) cards under the table in front of me and selected two of them without looking. I put the two cards "facing each other" in the envelope and closed it. He had his back turned while I did this. I then gave the envelope to mr. Randi, and he proceeded with some entertaining distractions like holding it up to his forhead and making a few jokes. He made his prediction and it was correct. I don't remember the (probably important) details in the end.
 
Ah Ririon I suspect from your description you have unknowingly given away the secret.Well to non magicians they will still be no wiser but I have a good theory.
There are many ESP card effects about,not seen Randi's sadly.
[Grovel mode]Anyone want to swap me some lectures for Derren Brown shows? [/grovel] ;)
 
Ririon,
Would you mind a few more questions about what you recall?

Did you inspect the cards after you were handed them?

Did you see the two cards that you inserted into the envelope?

Could Randi have seen the backs of the cards as they were being inserted into the envelope?

If any of these questions is getting too close to the restriction on discussing how magic tricks are done here please feel free to not answer them. I am never sure exactly when that rule applies exactly and I would rather err on the side of caution to conform to Randi's rules on this.
 
davefoc said:
Ririon,
Would you mind a few more questions about what you recall?

Did you inspect the cards after you were handed them?

Did you see the two cards that you inserted into the envelope?

Could Randi have seen the backs of the cards as they were being inserted into the envelope?

If any of these questions is getting too close to the restriction on discussing how magic tricks are done here please feel free to not answer them. I am never sure exactly when that rule applies exactly and I would rather err on the side of caution to conform to Randi's rules on this.
Click to expand...
Since I do not know the secret, that bypasses the non-disclosure, doesn't it? :o

Inspect... I did not x-ray them for evidence of hidden devices. They appeared to be made of solid thick (~1-1.5 mm) cardboard. The backsides were white. I did not look at the two cards I put in the envelope, but I kept the other three until the end of the trick. Randi had his back turned until the envelope was sealed. And no, I did not know the people seated directly behind me, so I did my best to hide what I did from them, too.
 
Good morning everyone.
Thanks for all of your responses. I have at least three differant performances of this trick on tape/dvd. I will describe it to you all.
He starts of by stating that he does this trick, of his own invention, because it drives magicians nuts because they can't figure it out. On one of them, he states that people have offered to by the trick from him but he will not sell it until someone figures it out.
He then produces 5 jumbo zener cards and shows all 5 differant cards. They have bicylce backs. In one of the shows he hands all five cards to someone in the audiance and lets the person, show them to everyone, fronts, and backs.
Then having picked someone at random he hands them the cards, a piece of black cardboard, and an envelope, and asks the person to shuffle the cards face down so that they don't know which card is which. Randi then asks the person to select two cards and place the other three cards on the floor or on the table face down. Take the two cards that they selected and turn them face to face without looking at them. After this is done, plave the two selected cards in the folded piece of cardboard and then place that in the envelope and seal it.
Randi then takes the sealed envelope back from the person, but has the person keep the remaining three cards and places it on a table on stage and procedes to discuss the probability of him guessing what one of the cards would be. Then what the probability of him guessing both cards correctly. Then the probability of guessing what side each card would be on. He then picks up the envelope again and writes his guess on the envelope. In the differant lectures they are differant cards. On one side of the envelope he draws one symbol and draws symbol on the other side. He then opens the envelope and shows that the cards that he guessed and wrote down on the envelope are in fact the correct cards in the correct position.
He then asks the person to show everyone the three other cards to show that he had not switched envelopes.
After the applause, he then askes again what the probability of him guessing correctly is. Randi says "100% Because it's a trick!" The same as when a magician cuts a women in half, it's a trick. Randi says this is why it is wrong to use statiscs to test Sylvia Browne and John Edward. Because what they are doing is a trick.
The trick is slightly diffent at each show. I can think of a couple of ways it might be done, but I suspect I making the trick way too hi-tech and complicated.
JPK
 
Last edited:
Good morning Ririon.
Ririon said:
Since I do not know the secret, that bypasses the non-disclosure, doesn't it? :o

Inspect... I did not x-ray them for evidence of hidden devices. They appeared to be made of solid thick (~1-1.5 mm) cardboard. The backsides were white. I did not look at the two cards I put in the envelope, but I kept the other three until the end of the trick. Randi had his back turned until the envelope was sealed. And no, I did not know the people seated directly behind me, so I did my best to hide what I did from them, too.
Click to expand...

This is interesting because in all of the shows I have seen the cards were Jumbo Bicycle back Zener cards. Blue backs.
In the one tape he asked the person in the audience to guess what cards they thought were in the envelope. The person guessed correctly as well.
JPK
 
JPK said:
Good evening.
I love this effect. I am glad to say I can’t figure it out. Just wondering if everyone else knows how this is done and for some reason I can’t see it.
Click to expand...

I'd check to see if he is always facing directly towards the audience, or if he turns around or is obstructed from view at any time.
 
Good morning T'Chi
T'ai Chi said:
I'd check to see if he is always facing directly towards the audience, or if he turns around or is obstructed from view at any time.
Click to expand...

After he hands the cards to the person in the audience, he turns his back towards that person so he can't see the cards while the person is shuffleing them. Randi then turns back around after the 2 cards are sealed in the envelope and the other three are face down on the floor or face down and covered on the table. After he takes the envelope back from the person who sealed it, he does once again turn his back on the audience as he makes his way back to the stage. The envelope stays in sight except for a brief second when he turns. He even makes mention to the fact that you might think he swapped envelopes while he turned, but then again even if he did, he never approaches the remaining three cards which are still with the person in the audience.
JPK
 
In each doing of the trick is the envelope set down on a table? I just noticed beacuse the envelope is obstructed from view.
 
T'ai Chi said:
In each doing of the trick is the envelope set down on a table? I just noticed beacuse the envelope is obstructed from view.
Click to expand...
I seem to recall that is the case. However in the video you linked to it is out of sight. In some of the others videos it is in plain sight on the table, but if I recall correctly he does put the envelope down on a table in every perfomance.
JPK
 
Am I violating any secret conjuror's code of ethics if I posit my theory of how this works? (I love to watch magicians, but am definitely NOT a magician/conjuror of any kind.)

But I think I may have figured this out...

-AH.
 
Antiquehunter said:
Am I violating any secret conjuror's code of ethics if I posit my theory of how this works? (I love to watch magicians, but am definitely NOT a magician/conjuror of any kind.)

But I think I may have figured this out...

-AH.
Click to expand...

Yes, I think you would. I think the exactly how the rules against discussing how magic tricks are done is a bit ambiguous and to tell you the truth I don't particularly like it. But, I also wouldn't want to go against something that Randi has requested concerning this forum. So for me this thread has gone about as close to talking about how the trick is done without violating the spirit of Randi's request as I am comfortable with.

But I have no official status around here so what I think doesn't matter all that much with regard to this.
 
Maybe someone could post a sticky with what the rules / guidelines are - if I SPECULATE about how a trick MAY be done (which is all I would be doing) I'm not breaking the code - unless someone verifies that I hit the nail on the head.

-AH.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom