Time Magazine Article on Autism

[Dancing David]

Copied from behave net

Antisocial PD 301.7

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

(1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
(5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others
(6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
(7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

B. The individual is at least age 18 years.

C. There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.

D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode.

Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth Edition. Copyright 1994 American

The keyword is in the 'violation' in that it imply the volitional acts. Antisocial tends to mean that the person willing engages in the disregard and violation of the rights of other.

Autism , developmental disorders and Aix I mental illnesses are an automatic rule out for the PD , you can not asses the PD in the precence of Axis-I or develpomental on Aix-II.

A person with autism is acting in response to lack of social cues, inability to interprte social cues or just plain old lack of functioning. This is very different from the volitional act of violation of ther rights. that is why there is a rule out for Scizophrenia and Bipolar.

Especialy the criteria of 'lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another '

would not apply to autism because 'indifference' would imply the ability to percieve and understand the feelings of other and the consequences of behavior which are often absent in autism.

An autitic person does not steal for personal gain, they may take something because they don't understand the social cue that it is not thiers, they may batter someone because 'they were yelling at me', but not because the are deliberatelt battering someone.

A person with autism is very rarely going to engage in the deliberate harming of other.

If the use of antisocial applied to people with developmental disorders than it would be applied to most people with an IQ of 50 or lower who often harm others on a daily basis.

 

[Dancing David]

Did I say Asperger's wasn't real? What I did say is that the label tends to be attached to people who really aren't in need of treatment.



Sorry, but this behavior sounds anti-social and rude to me. They want friends, but they don't want their friends to behave like friends. I regret saying "anti-social" because it obviously implies the sort of person who just avoids people. I was using the term too loosely.

If a person is so impaired that they cannot function with others, then that person has a disorder. Is "mild Asperger's" a disorder, or just something that person has to work at a little harder?

My contention is that the apparent surge in case's of Asperger's is caused by the labeling of "mild Asperger's" cases as Asperger's. Maybe this is a good thing, in that there are treatments for mild Aspergers. Or maybe it's a bad thing, in that it singles out a large group of people as disordered, while the kids who are mildly clumsy or mildly pushy are just taken to need a little extra help in those areas.

The real problem is that there are people with little opr no training that use the labels to freely.

The second issue is that there are parents who want to avoid recognising that there child is an sociopathic little devian with a major behavior disorder, and they would desperately search for any reason to excuse thier child's behavior. Thwen there are the parents who batter the crap out of thier kids and would rather say that there kid has aspergers than that they are a victim of domestic violence. Then there are the kids who have pediatric bipolar or schizophrenia, and the parents would rather they have something with a little less stigma.

I once worked with a nineteeen years old who probaly had type II bipolar and clearly antisocial traits, he used violence and intimidation to control people, he plotted who to harm people to avoid the consequence, he used laguage and behavior to enforce his will upon others, he exploited abused and stole from people. And his parents, bless thier hearts, wanted to say that he had Tourettes syndrome.

The problem is the use of the word 'mild'. it is like being 'mildly' preganant.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Sorry there is no mild autism, the phrase , substantial impairment in social functioning is the key.

It means that you have a major imapirment in social functioning that is not better accounted for by another disorder, if you can work or have peer relations outside the family network than you most likely do not have autistic traits.

It would be like saying that you are mildly 'retarded' and have a PHD.

So, the impairment of social functioning has to be at a certain level before it can be considered an "autistic" trait? That seems a little arbitrary.

I had no normal social relationships when I was growing up. The only "friends" I had did not treat me as an equal, but more like a pet.

I did not go on a date until I was 21.

I currently have a well-paying job, but suffered through years of under-employment before finding my niche in society. Although my current job does not require a great deal of social skill, I will likely be unable to advance beyond a certain point without these skills.

I currently have no close friends, and no non-work acquaintences at all other than through my wife.

I come across much better in writing than in speaking. In social settings I stammer, garble my syntax Bush-style, and just generally make a mess of the interaction.

None of this is by choice. I would love to have a healthy social network like other people, but I simply don't have the skills. I am better at picking up cues and expressing myself than I once was, but I'm beginning to accept that I may never be as good at it as most people are.

Social impairment is not a binary state, where you are either socially impaired or socially healthy. It is a continuum. This is why it seems like a pointless argument in semantics to say that the word "autism" cannot apply unless the current state is at or beyond a certain point in the continuum.

 

[ChristineR]

aggle-rithm, everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Teachers however do not go around talking about "cluminess spectrum disorders" or "compulsive bullying syndrome." Instead, they teach coordination drills and use anti-bullying techniques.

Where does the line cross from "just the way you are" to a disorder? Is that line placed further back for ADHD and autism? We can get all philosophical here...why are conditions that were just held to be one of the many flaws to which we humans are subject now being medicalized? Of course it goes the other way too. All sorts of "diseases" have just quietly fallen by the wayside over the years.

 

[Dancing David]

So, the impairment of social functioning has to be at a certain level before it can be considered an "autistic" trait? That seems a little arbitrary.

I had no normal social relationships when I was growing up. The only "friends" I had did not treat me as an equal, but more like a pet.

I did not go on a date until I was 21.

I currently have a well-paying job, but suffered through years of under-employment before finding my niche in society. Although my current job does not require a great deal of social skill, I will likely be unable to advance beyond a certain point without these skills.

I currently have no close friends, and no non-work acquaintences at all other than through my wife.

I come across much better in writing than in speaking. In social settings I stammer, garble my syntax Bush-style, and just generally make a mess of the interaction.

None of this is by choice. I would love to have a healthy social network like other people, but I simply don't have the skills. I am better at picking up cues and expressing myself than I once was, but I'm beginning to accept that I may never be as good at it as most people are.

Social impairment is not a binary state, where you are either socially impaired or socially healthy. It is a continuum. This is why it seems like a pointless argument in semantics to say that the word "autism" cannot apply unless the current state is at or beyond a certain point in the continuum.

I apologise my words were poorly chosen and ill considered. I regret my statements as they pertain to you and your beleifs and have possibly caused you hurt.

I certainly read that you have a major social impairment by your standards and I will not insult you by doing an assesment. I am also very sympathetic to what you describe. And as autism is a spectrum disorder there is much to what you say.

Do you percieve social cues? In that do you know when other people are uncomfortable and change your behavior in response?

The defintion of autism is very specific as to it being a pervasive developmental disorder. And it is very specific to the onset being prior to the age of three.

The definition of Aspergers is much less specific as to the expression of the traits, which is why onset can be up to the age of nine. And some wits have described Aspergers as 'Autism-Lite'.

So I still say that autism is an overused term even as a spectrum disorder because any traits at the mild end of the spectrum are generaly better defined as Aspergers.

i certainly did not mean to twist your tail, and i apologise for any harm i might have done.

I am just very tired of doctors and clinicians slinging the word austism around without making the differential diagnosis. I have seen kids who clearly had conduct disorder because they had the volition to harm people and thiey are called 'autistic'. So i was ranting.

Sorry.

 

[Dancing David]

A total of Six (or more) items from (1), (2), and (3), with at least two from (1), and one each from (2) and (3).


1.qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

-marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction

-failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to development level

-a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest)

-lack of social or emotional reciprocity


2.qualitative impairments in communication as manifested by at least one of the following:

-delay in, or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alterative modes of communication such as gesture or mine)

-in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others

-stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language

-lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level


3.restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

-encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus

-apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals

-stereotypes and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)

-persistent preoccupation with parts of objects


Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years: (1) social interaction, (2) language as used in social communication, or (3) symbolic or imaginative play.


The disturbance is not better accounted for by Rett’s Disorder or Childhood Disintergrative Disorder

 

[TobiasTheViking]

As it's been mentioned, the live cell vs. dead cell was the Salk and Sabin polio vaccine. (A virus is really not a cell unless things have changed since I was in college, but that is another argument)

As for autisum and modern vaccines, perhaps it's just natural variation in behavior. It could happen without the vaccine just as well. Also, is autism over diagnosed?

Maybe, i can't make a decission on that.

Just to clairify my other statement on Thimerosal, this has been used over a century as a common antiseptic placed on cuts. It was also used as a mouthwash for chronic sore throats and tonsilitis well into the 1970s. So was mercury bichloride (mercurochorme). This exposure was much greater than what is encountered with vaccination. If Thimerosal and mercury are somehow responsible for autism, is there any correlation in past generations?

No.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

Just sad, socialization does help autistic people fuction better, but it is never more than raising them to thier final potential.

Autism is a pervasive develpomental disorder, they have an organic lack in different areas, they can learn to reach thier potential, but the barrier is always there.

That is no more true for autists than it is for everyone else

What is worse in the numbers of misdiagnosis for autism, it is now the 'diagnosis de jur', with Aspergers running a close second. One you have met some people who do qualify for the diagnosis and some of the ones who don't it becomes apparent that many unqualified professionals are using the labels.

But the false cures are much, much worse.

true.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

I already have submitted such evidence.

That is not proof that all autists are rude and impolite.

There is nothing here about confusion, stress, depression or fright, although I don't doubt that many persons with Asperger's feel those.

So what?
I was talking real life effects of Aspergers, not diagnosis terms.

I personally doubt that Einstein had Asperger's, and even if he did it could not be shown now. I don't know if people found him rude or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people did.

Ok, i'll let that one go since we can't know for certain one way or the other if he had autism.

Still, you have claimed many times over that all autists are rude and impolite.

And on behalf of the group of 6 14-16 year old children with autism, of which one may sometimes appear a bit impolite, i am offended.

I don't feel you can substantiate your claim, if you can, you haven't done it yet.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

Sorry there is no mild autism, the phrase , substantial impairment in social functioning is the key.

Sure there is

It means that you have a major imapirment in social functioning that is not better accounted for by another disorder, if you can work or have peer relations outside the family network than you most likely do not have autistic traits.

Many many people with autism can work, and many many people with have peer relations outside the family network.

I would say most instead of many, but i don't have any statistics to back it up. All i can do is talk about all the people with autism i know, and most of them have peer relations outside the family network, and most of the ones old enough to work, work.

 

[ChristineR]

That is not proof that all autists are rude and impolite.

I was talking real life effects of Aspergers, not diagnosis terms.

Still, you have claimed many times over that all autists are rude and impolite.

And on behalf of the group of 6 14-16 year old children with autism, of which one may sometimes appear a bit impolite, i am offended.

I don't feel you can substantiate your claim, if you can, you haven't done it yet.

I have NEVER said that autists are rude or impolite. In my (fairly limited) experience they are quite polite. I said Apserger's patients are rude and impolite. Asperger's is not the same as "mild autism." Asperger's is a rare disorder. It is very unlikely that you know 6 children with Asperger's. I can certainly believe you know six children with autism. If you actually know six children that have been diagnosed with Asperger's, then this proves my point that the label is being applied to conditions that would never have been called Asperger's in the past.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

I have NEVER said that autists are rude or impolite. In my (fairly limited) experience they are quite polite. I said Apserger's patients are rude and impolite. Asperger's is not the same as "mild autism." Asperger's is a rare disorder. It is very unlikely that you know 6 children with Asperger's. I can certainly believe you know six children with autism. If you actually know six children that have been diagnosed with Asperger's, then this proves my point that the label is being applied to conditions that would never have been called Asperger's in the past.

Sorry, wrong again. Most autists are asperger autism. Atypical and infiantil are much rarer than Aspergers.

Anyways, then you just have to come with evidence that Aspergers pateients are rude and impolite.

I know moer than six children with aspergers, which doesn't prove your point what so ever.

 

[ChristineR]

Sorry, I don't agree. The label was originally only applied to profoundly ill people, and is now being applied to the mildly quirky.

Have you any evidence for the classification of austistic disorders as "Aspergers, infantile, and atypical?" I can't find anything, and I can't find any clear incidence data either. Most of what I get when I google is anti-vax stuff.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

Sorry, I don't agree. The label was originally only applied to profoundly ill people, and is now being applied to the mildly quirky.

Which do you mean, autism? or aspergers?

Have you any evidence for the classification of austistic disorders as "Aspergers, infantile, and atypical?" I can't find anything, and I can't find any clear incidence data either. Most of what I get when I google is anti-vax stuff.

Are you saying that through this entire argument you never actually knew the classification of Aspergers autism and Infantile autism?

 

[Boo]

ChristineR,

It has become quite apparent that ytou don't have any real knowledge or have ever dealt with anyione that was actually on the Spectrum. i would suggest at this point you need to go learn about Autism. We'll be here when you get back.




Boo

 

[ChristineR]

Boo--you're wrong.

Tobias: I've heard of infantile autism and Asperger's autism. I have never heard them described as separate, distinct, exculsive entities. I've heard it argured that they are the same condition. I've heard autism classed by several labels, but I've never heard any one say: "there are three kinds of autism, distinct and exclusive." What I usually hear is about "autism spectrum disorders" which include several disorders, not always clearly distinguished from one another, and classed from mild to severe.

 

[Stellafane]

I have NEVER said that autists are rude or impolite. In my (fairly limited) experience they are quite polite. I said Apserger's patients are rude and impolite.

I know a grand total of one person who has been diagnosed with Asperger's, a girl in her late teens, so take this for whatever it's worth. She does a lot of things that out of context may seem rude and/or impolite. For instance, she lives with her parents, who own a restaurant. (Her father is the chef, and her mother serves and runs the general operation.) The family lives upstairs, with the kitchen and restaurant dining area downstairs. This girl has been known to come down during a busy night, walk across the dining room in her pajamas, go to the kitchen, and ask her father to make her something to eat, oblivious to the crowd of customers and the fact that her father is in the middle of cooking their meals. But such behavior doesn't come across as truly rude or impolite, it's just a certain cluelessness about context, as if she's totally unaware of her environment and what's going on around her. That may meet the definition of rude or impolite in some strict literal sense, but if motive and emotional state factor in, I think it's an inaccurate and perhaps unfair assessment.

 

[Dancing David]

That is no more true for autists than it is for everyone else


true.

I wish that it was so, there are many people I have met who are capable of social learning, of the fivteen autistic people I have had the pleasure to meet only one was truely capable of learning to adjust to new social situations. Yeah he would scream and yell the first time that we took a different road to a destination, but he would adapt to the change, and he could learn to regulate his behavior socialy, but I may have met a biased sample, being the people diagnosed with autism who needed community support.

Some people are not capable of learning new skills, or maintaining them, which is a real drawback. that is wghat i met by fulfilling thier potential, without exceding it.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

Boo--you're wrong.

Tobias: I've heard of infantile autism and Asperger's autism. I have never heard them described as separate, distinct, exculsive entities. I've heard it argured that they are the same condition. I've heard autism classed by several labels, but I've never heard any one say: "there are three kinds of autism, distinct and exclusive." What I usually hear is about "autism spectrum disorders" which include several disorders, not always clearly distinguished from one another, and classed from mild to severe.

Autism is a spectrum disorder, one part of the spectrum is infantile autism, another is aspergers autism. Some parts fall in neither infantile nor aspergers, and that is atypical. All three of these do overlap in the autism spectrum, to a certain degree. This is basic knowledge, very basic knowledge, if you don't know that you simply don't know enough about autism to be able to have this discussion.

ETA:

Either withdraw from this argument, or come with evidence that all(or atleast most, though your claim seems like you mean all) Aspergers are rude and offensive.

I'm getting tired of your sidestepping, show the evidence. And no, you haven't done that already, the diagnosis criteria aren't sufficient.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

I wish that it was so, there are many people I have met who are capable of social learning, of the fivteen autistic people I have had the pleasure to meet only one was truely capable of learning to adjust to new social situations. Yeah he would scream and yell the first time that we took a different road to a destination, but he would adapt to the change, and he could learn to regulate his behavior socialy, but I may have met a biased sample, being the people diagnosed with autism who needed community support.

Some people are not capable of learning new skills, or maintaining them, which is a real drawback. that is wghat i met by fulfilling thier potential, without exceding it.

True, some people are not capable of learning new skills. But most Asperger autist are quite capable of learning new skills, and holding a job, if they get a little help in the process.

Most autists will have problem in a truely normal work, though many will still be able to do it.
Of the 30+ asperger and infantile autists i know, only a few aren't capable of holding a job. That is, of the once expected to work(old enough).

Some of them work in jobs where special allowanses for their autism is made, some of them work in completely normal jobs. But most of them DO work.

Of the few that don't, one of them gets a depression about once every two months(or less). That is a direct problem from the autism, and without that problem, that person would be very capable of having a job.

Both me, and a shrink, is working on that depression problem right now, have for the last two months, and it is getting a bit better.

Sincerely
Tobias