Time Magazine Article on Autism

The person you describe would be outgoing yet apparently inconsiderate, even rude. He/she might approach a complete stranger who was crying and insist on enlightening her as to the complete idiocy of the Kennedy assassination conspriracy theorists. You can hardly blame the sobbing lady if she considers that mocking, bullying, and hostility.

(Yes, it's a real life example.)

Some people make these sorts of blunders rarely, others not so rarely. I still say there is a real tendency of teachers to declare the relatively clueless kid Aspergers.
 
ChristineR said:
The person you describe would be outgoing yet apparently inconsiderate, even rude. He/she might approach a complete stranger who was crying and insist on enlightening her as to the complete idiocy of the Kennedy assassination conspriracy theorists. You can hardly blame the sobbing lady if she considers that mocking, bullying, and hostility.

(Yes, it's a real life example.)
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*shrug* of all the people with Aspergers i know, less than half are anti-social, and most are very decent.
Some people make these sorts of blunders rarely, others not so rarely. I still say there is a real tendency of teachers to declare the relatively clueless kid Aspergers.
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I did agree that a teacher couldn't make any sort of diagnosis. I'm just saying that the idea that all Aspergers are anti-social is about as wrong as saying all Aspergers have no humor.

But i totally agree that a teacher can't make that sort of diagnosis.
 
ChristineR said:
The person you describe would be outgoing yet apparently inconsiderate, even rude. He/she might approach a complete stranger who was crying and insist on enlightening her as to the complete idiocy of the Kennedy assassination conspriracy theorists. You can hardly blame the sobbing lady if she considers that mocking, bullying, and hostility.
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And sorry, i have to totally disagree with that.

The person i descriped WOULDN'T be like you descriped. He COULD be like you descriped, but it is by no means certain.

People with aspergers aren't usually rude, a few are, yes, but the majority isn't.

People wiht aspergers wouldn't usually approach someone who is crying for any other reason than to comfort, a few yes, but the majority wouldn't.

People with aspergers wouldn't usually start talking totally non sequitur in a situation like that, a few yes, but the majority wouldn't.
 
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I can't believe it took me this long to find this thread. As the mother of Autistic twins let me weigh in here for a few moments.

Autism is a spectrum disorder. This means that by definition there is a very wide range of abilities and disabilities, levels of functioning, behaviors and retardation. (Yes I use that word because it's the one that agencies use to get my kids the treatment they need). Even when dealing with Autistics of similar functional levels the range of behaviors and abilities is very wide.

The marked increase in Autism seems to be due more to a labeling and diagnostic approach. The more criteria you have and flexibility in applying that criteria, the more people there will be that fall under the label of Auitistic. A child who has Pervasive Personality Disorder-Not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS) may require some type of service or therapy to address a behavior or other deficit. To someone not familiar with the spectrum this would lead to questions of what is wrong with the child. It is easier for parents, families and medically to just say the child has a form of Autism or is Autistic.

Profoundly involved children can now be diagnosed as early as 15-18 months where others may not be diagnosed until well into their school years. Before they were just the geeky kid with some very strange personality quirks.

Autism has become the new flavor of the month due to a very effective campaign by different organizations to help fund research into finding the causes of Autism. Current research indicates that it involves multiple areas of the brain and has a genetic component. There is no cure, however there are cures for Autistic like conditions. If you know or have heard of an Autistic that was cured, then they weren't Autistic. Therapy helps and can greatly increase their functional levels and abilities. This should be the focus of publicity, not feel good scams like Facilitated Communication.



Boo
 
The term autism as I understand it is as broad and sweeping as the term cancer.
 
Huntster said:
I remember a controversy some years back involving the use of "live" cells vrs. "dead" cells in some inoculations.

Is it possible that a minor change in vaccine ingredients could be suspect?
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I believe the live cell vs. dead cell controversy was regarding the polio vaccine that children are given. The live vaccine, while responsible for nearly eradicating polio from this country, nevertheless caused some small number of kids to come down with polio. These kids, if left unvaccinated, would not have contracted polio, because they would have benefitted from herd immunity of the general population. So a parent, if considering what is important only for his child, actually has incentive not to inoculate his kid. Once the dead cell vaccine became effective, there was some uproar about doctors who were still using the live cell.

Regarding aggle-rithm's statement about mild autism and lovable geekiness, I myself have the skill of telling you the day of the week for any date (at least this century and the past one). That's something associated with autism, isn't it?
 
I dunno Tobias, it sounds like you're making my point for me. We started by inventing a hypothetical Aspergers person, outgoing and friendly, but with these symptoms:

1. marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction

4. lack of emotional reciprocity

1. encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
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And then you say that this person wouldn't necessarily behave as badly as my hypothetical person. So how is it that this person has a disorder? What has he done that justifies calling this an illness?

As I said, thirty years ago this person might have been called "rude" or "quirky" but no one would suggest he was autistic.

Which brings us back to the original point: it's not at all clear to me that the incidence of Aspergers has increased. What I see is people, including a lot of non-medical people, using it to describe fairly normal and functional persons.
 
ChristineR said:
I dunno Tobias, it sounds like you're making my point for me. We started by inventing a hypothetical Aspergers person, outgoing and friendly, but with these symptoms:
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Those symptons doesn't make anyone anti-social, maybe socialy defficient, but not anti-social

ChristineR said:
And then you say that this person wouldn't necessarily behave as badly as my hypothetical person. So how is it that this person has a disorder? What has he done that justifies calling this an illness?
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Confusion.
Stress
Depresion.
Fright.


ChristineR said:
As I said, thirty years ago this person might have been called "rude" or "quirky" but no one would suggest he was autistic.
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Ok, i'm getting tired of this.

Please, provide me evidence that people with Aspergers are rude.

Einstein wasn't rude, was he?

ChristineR said:
Which brings us back to the original point: it's not at all clear to me that the incidence of Aspergers has increased. What I see is people, including a lot of non-medical people, using it to describe fairly normal and functional persons.
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The incidence probably haven't. But the number of people diagnosed have, for reasons i have already pointed out.

That said, i don't condone non-medical people descriping someone wiht autism if it hasn't been diagnosed by someone capable of doing it.
 
Huntster said:
Not having any background in medicine, I'm "elementary" in understanding what I read.

I remember a controversy some years back involving the use of "live" cells vrs. "dead" cells in some inoculations.

Is it possible that a minor change in vaccine ingredients could be suspect?
Click to expand...

As it's been mentioned, the live cell vs. dead cell was the Salk and Sabin polio vaccine. (A virus is really not a cell unless things have changed since I was in college, but that is another argument)

As for autisum and modern vaccines, perhaps it's just natural variation in behavior. It could happen without the vaccine just as well. Also, is autism over diagnosed?

Just to clairify my other statement on Thimerosal, this has been used over a century as a common antiseptic placed on cuts. It was also used as a mouthwash for chronic sore throats and tonsilitis well into the 1970s. So was mercury bichloride (mercurochorme). This exposure was much greater than what is encountered with vaccination. If Thimerosal and mercury are somehow responsible for autism, is there any correlation in past generations?
 
marksman said:
Unbelievably, this week's issue of Time has as its cover article, "New Insights into the Hidden World of Autism", which turns out to be a ten-page spread extolling the virtues of the bunk science known as Facilitated Communication, and basically gives an unskeptical look at the claims of Syracuse University's Facilitiated Communication Institute.

I have never been more aghast at an instance of reckless and irresponsible journalism. Do not buy this issue. Do not give Time your money. If you don't believe me, browse through it from your local newsstand.
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Just sad, socialization does help autistic people fuction better, but it is never more than raising them to thier final potential.

Autism is a pervasive develpomental disorder, they have an organic lack in different areas, they can learn to reach thier potential, but the barrier is always there.

What is worse in the numbers of misdiagnosis for autism, it is now the 'diagnosis de jur', with Aspergers running a close second. One you have met some people who do qualify for the diagnosis and some of the ones who don't it becomes apparent that many unqualified professionals are using the labels.

But the false cures are much, much worse.
 
Boo said:
I can't believe it took me this long to find this thread. As the mother of Autistic twins let me weigh in here for a few moments.

Autism is a spectrum disorder. This means that by definition there is a very wide range of abilities and disabilities, levels of functioning, behaviors and retardation. (Yes I use that word because it's the one that agencies use to get my kids the treatment they need). Even when dealing with Autistics of similar functional levels the range of behaviors and abilities is very wide.

The marked increase in Autism seems to be due more to a labeling and diagnostic approach. The more criteria you have and flexibility in applying that criteria, the more people there will be that fall under the label of Auitistic. A child who has Pervasive Personality Disorder-Not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS) may require some type of service or therapy to address a behavior or other deficit. To someone not familiar with the spectrum this would lead to questions of what is wrong with the child. It is easier for parents, families and medically to just say the child has a form of Autism or is Autistic.

Profoundly involved children can now be diagnosed as early as 15-18 months where others may not be diagnosed until well into their school years. Before they were just the geeky kid with some very strange personality quirks.

Autism has become the new flavor of the month due to a very effective campaign by different organizations to help fund research into finding the causes of Autism. Current research indicates that it involves multiple areas of the brain and has a genetic component. There is no cure, however there are cures for Autistic like conditions. If you know or have heard of an Autistic that was cured, then they weren't Autistic. Therapy helps and can greatly increase their functional levels and abilities. This should be the focus of publicity, not feel good scams like Facilitated Communication.



Boo
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Quite right!

It is 'developmental disorder' in the Mh field!
 
I already have submitted such evidence.

Diagnostic Criteria For 299.80 Asperger's Disorder
A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

1. marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
2. failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
3. a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
4. lack of social or emotional reciprocity

B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

1. encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
2. apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
3. stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
4. persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood

F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia
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There is nothing here about confusion, stress, depression or fright, although I don't doubt that many persons with Asperger's feel those.

I personally doubt that Einstein had Asperger's, and even if he did it could not be shown now. I don't know if people found him rude or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people did.
 
ChristineR said:
No, I don't mean antisocial personality disorder. I just mean that there are people with personalities that are Asperger's-like without having a disorder, just as you can be moody and pessimistic without necessarily having a mood disorder. Thirty years ago no one would ever think to call these people austistic or mention Asperger's syndrome. Nowadays every school teacher is labeling kids.

What is the difference between Asperger's and being anti-social (in that loose sense), Tobias? I think the usual distinction is whether or not the person can function sucessfully.
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I know two people with Asperger's, one a close, long-time friend.

They are not anti-social. They want to have friends as much as you or I. But they don't understand the social cues that most of us learned just by osmosis. They stand too close to you when they talk to you, they don't speak so much as orate, their apparent emotional range is very compressed (they sound the same whether they're happy, sad, angry, or bored), they don't understand what is considered appropriate subjects for conversation (telling Mrs. BPSCG all about a gruesome rape/murder trial 15 minutes after first meeting her), and don't understand that conversation is a back-and-forth, that when someone interjects something while he's talking, it's not necessarily an interruption.

They have poor motor skills, for some reason, and seem to have an encyclopedic memory in areas that interest them (don't ask my friend how the weather is where he lives unless you want to hear Today In Weather History). They do poorly with abstract concepts; their thinking tends to be rigid and concrete. They often develop language skills very early, and as children, are often identified as "little professors" when they start reciting their encyclopedic knowledge of their pet topic.

Asperger's was not well-known ten years ago. My friend saw a psychologist a few times about 8 years ago, who diagnosed him as depressed. Shortly afterwards, my sister sent me a link to an Asperger's site, and suggested it sounded like him. I was stunned, and sent the link to some other mutual friends, with nothing more in the message text than "What do you think about this?" and the link. They both emailed me back, "Oh my God..."

Asperger's is damned real.
 
Did I say Asperger's wasn't real? What I did say is that the label tends to be attached to people who really aren't in need of treatment.

BPSCG said:
They are not anti-social. They want to have friends as much as you or I. But they don't understand the social cues that most of us learned just by osmosis. They stand too close to you when they talk to you, they don't speak so much as orate, their apparent emotional range is very compressed (they sound the same whether they're happy, sad, angry, or bored), they don't understand what is considered appropriate subjects for conversation (telling Mrs. BPSCG all about a gruesome rape/murder trial 15 minutes after first meeting her), and don't understand that conversation is a back-and-forth, that when someone interjects something while he's talking, it's not necessarily an interruption.
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Sorry, but this behavior sounds anti-social and rude to me. They want friends, but they don't want their friends to behave like friends. I regret saying "anti-social" because it obviously implies the sort of person who just avoids people. I was using the term too loosely.

If a person is so impaired that they cannot function with others, then that person has a disorder. Is "mild Asperger's" a disorder, or just something that person has to work at a little harder?

My contention is that the apparent surge in case's of Asperger's is caused by the labeling of "mild Asperger's" cases as Asperger's. Maybe this is a good thing, in that there are treatments for mild Aspergers. Or maybe it's a bad thing, in that it singles out a large group of people as disordered, while the kids who are mildly clumsy or mildly pushy are just taken to need a little extra help in those areas.
 
ChristineR said:
Asperger's is very trendy right now. There's not a clear line between Asperger's and just being anti-social, and people are pushing the line further and further out. Asperger's are not usually retarded. When I was young the only "austistic people" you ever heard of were severely retarded and Asperger's basically didn't exist.
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This is an abuse of the clinical phrase 'anti-social', and what autism and aspregers have in common is a general trait of not getting social cues.

Anti-social means a blatant disregard for the norms and mores of society, ie criminal behavior. Autism may cause people to have low impulse control and poor social cuing but is does not cause anti-social behavior in the clinical sense.

What most people mean to say is 'un-social' or 'poor social skills'.

Sorry nothing personal just a pet peeve , that I feed on a regular basis.
 
aggle-rithm said:
Didn't you hear? Autism!

;)

Seriously, I also have a smattering of autistic symptoms, as do many technical people. Mild autism is often indistinguishable from general geekiness.
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Sorry there is no mild autism, the phrase , substantial impairment in social functioning is the key.

It means that you have a major imapirment in social functioning that is not better accounted for by another disorder, if you can work or have peer relations outside the family network than you most likely do not have autistic traits.

It would be like saying that you are mildly 'retarded' and have a PHD.
 
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