Loose Change

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Yes and no

Xraye said:
By the way, regardless of which side is right in this debate, I think only a positive result can come from it becoming widly known and widely debated. If it is a governmental conspiracy, the reasons are obvious why that should be known. If it is just a bunch of conspiracy theorists who got all freaked out because they think they have evidence of a cover up, it's also good that the debate becomes more public so that those who get caught up in the conspiracy will be confronted with the truth.
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I agree with your sentiments to a certain extent. Debate is good, so long as it is honest. The problem is, I do not believe most CT'ers are in fact honest in their debate. They repeat the same unverified, totally debunked claims over and over, and either shout down, condemn, or ignore the responses that prove them wrong. In fact, they do all in their power to stifle true debate, banning people for no other reason than they disagree with the CT orthodoxy (such as it is). It's impossible to respect anyone who does this.

Finally, I must frankly question how much serious attention CT'ers actually merit. For example, imagine that I started a baseless rumor that you are a dog-kicking drunk who cheats on his taxes and sleeps with sheep. And no matter how much evidence you provided to the contrary, my cronies and I kept spreading these rumors across the internet. Would you still feel that both sides of the "debate" deserved widespread public airing and attention? Some theories are too stupid to deserve consideration, and for me, the 9/11 "Bush did it" theory is very much one of them.
 
Xraye said:
By the way, regardless of which side is right in this debate, I think only a positive result can come from it becoming widly known and widely debated. If it is a governmental conspiracy, the reasons are obvious why that should be known. If it is just a bunch of conspiracy theorists who got all freaked out because they think they have evidence of a cover up, it's also good that the debate becomes more public so that those who get caught up in the conspiracy will be confronted with the truth.
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One issue we've been facing is that the CTs have a HUGE head start in terms of getting their views "widely known." If someone new to these issues Googles a topic, they will see dozens of CT sites and probably no anti-CT sites. That amounts to an argumentum ad numerum in favor of conspiracy theories.

When I first heard of these CT claims 6 weeks ago, I assumed that they were limited to a small group of believers. Well, I certainly "misunderestimated" the power of the internet. 'Loose Change" is in the top 5 of Google Video views.

A time-tested CT technique has been to make wild allegations first and worry about evidence if anyone challenges the claims later. Meanwhile, lots of books and videos get sold. That's an extremely dishonest way of presenting a case to the public, and I resent the fact that if we don't respond to that dishonesty, more people are going to be duped every day.

Speaking of dishonesty, I noticed that you brought up, on the LC forum, the issue of people being banned there as opposed to here. A few people, such as Roxdog, said that the JREF mods are LESS tolerant than the LC mods. As usual, Roxdog and his cohorts are lying. The ONLY reason Loose Change people have been banned here is that some chose to deliberately break the forum rules more than once and then say to the mods, "Go ahead, ban me." And they received fair warning. If you hang with the Loosers you'll be with an incredibly dishonest crowd. I don't get it.
 
Xraye said:
Gravy:


No, it wasn't "my" evidence but it's certainly a piece of evidence which I find interesting. I concede to the fact that I haven't properly researched the data, as evident in the fact that I'm coming across many things in this forum which I haven't seen yet.


Kookbreaker:


Ya, I didn't want to wade through all the masses of posts in this thread, but I realize that if I want to make any type of intelligable argument I have to become familiar with the debate. I'm currently only on the 5th page, making notes and checking the links, and I intend on doing thorough research of the points discussed here and on the debunking websight that was created before posting further.

CurtC


LOL Ya, deffinatly not a good strategy to confront a forum full of people to debate with, to throw mass amounts of evidence, or rather ammo, at the people I'm about to debate with. I admit that in my previous post I didn't present any substantial arguments.

I value this forum as a resource in understanding responses to the arguments that I'm thus far familiar with, exposure to different interpretations of current evidence, as a possible source of additional evidence that may surface which would be overlooked by the other side, and particularly as a fire-test of evidence that's used to debunk the official story.

Dialectical debate is essential when dealing with such issues, and I believe it's the only way that we can really come to a larger picture of what happened.
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Well, I think we got ourselves here a sincere person who is genuinely willing to debate. It'll be nice for a change to have an intelligent exchange of ideas over this subject. I am looking forward to it Wraye! :D
 
Gravy said:
One issue we've been facing is that the CTs have a HUGE head start in terms of getting their views "widely known." If someone new to these issues Googles a topic, they will see dozens of CT sites and probably no anti-CT sites. That amounts to an argumentum ad numerum in favor of conspiracy theories.

When I first heard of these CT claims 6 weeks ago, I assumed that they were limited to a small group of believers. Well, I certainly "misunderestimated" the power of the internet. 'Loose Change" is in the top 5 of Google Video views.

A time-tested CT technique has been to make wild allegations first and worry about evidence if anyone challenges the claims later. Meanwhile, lots of books and videos get sold. That's an extremely dishonest way of presenting a case to the public, and I resent the fact that if we don't respond to that dishonesty, more people are going to be duped every day.
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Agree with this totally. 9/11 conspiracies weren't even on my radar two months ago. I think there's a perfect conspiracy-storm brewing here. I just read on the LC forum that they've arranged to have British Labour MP Michael Meacher screen the film.

This junk is spreading, and spreading like wildfire. I don't think it can be ignored.
 
How come I can't have access to the LC thread anymore? Have I been banned? I wasn't even in, how can I be outed?
 
Pardalis said:
How come I can't have access to the LC thread anymore? Have I been banned? I wasn't even in, how can I be outed?
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They moved it.

Created a "SKEPTICS Forum" under the "Loose Change Movie" subheading on the home page, at the very bottom.

Exercise for the reader as to why.
 
geggy said:
Heh you crack me, up, gravy. Keep the lies coming, why don't you?
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I just noticed this.

Where I live if you're going to call someone a liar, you'd better be able to back it up. Name a single lie I've told, geggy.

I'll make it easier for you. Point me to a single exchange that you and I have where you were right about a factual matter and I was wrong.

If you can't do that, I'd appreciate an apology.

And you might want to answer some of the questions that were posed to you today, just to show that you're sincere and not a troll.
 
Xraye said:
By the way, regardless of which side is right in this debate, I think only a positive result can come from it becoming widly known and widely debated. If it is a governmental conspiracy, the reasons are obvious why that should be known. If it is just a bunch of conspiracy theorists who got all freaked out because they think they have evidence of a cover up, it's also good that the debate becomes more public so that those who get caught up in the conspiracy will be confronted with the truth.
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Sir you are a gentleman.

Another possibility which you do not mention is that some but not all of the conspiracy theory is true --- indeed this must be so since there is more than one conspiracy theory.

If this is the case, then it would be as well to separate the solid facts from the unsubstantiated rumors; and how else to achieve that but open debate and critical analysis of each aspect of the theory?
 
Pardalis said:
Well, I think we got ourselves here a sincere person who is genuinely willing to debate. It'll be nice for a change to have an intelligent exchange of ideas over this subject. I am looking forward to it Wraye! :D
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I thought the same thing about geggy at first, and we all see how that turned out.

I hope I am wrong with this guy, but either way this thread, and the links I have followed from it has provided laughs, head shaking at insane stupidity and a great deal of entertainment. thanks guys



Jon
 
dubfan said:
The basic line of thinking goes something like this:

Whenever a bit of evidence or a fact pops up that appears to contradict the conspiracy theory, that fact is obviously "disinformation" deliberately planted by the conspirators to discredit the conspiracy theorist.

So, the mere existence of the LC forums is conclusive evidence -- simply by virtue of the fact that they haven't been shut down -- that their conspiracy theory must be true.

Q. E. D.

You see this going on with the 757 vs. no-757 camps. One bunch of CTs believes the evidence that an American Airlines 757 hit the Pentagon is so overwhelming that any CT to the contrary must be part of a deliberate misinformation campaign. The other bunch clings tightly to the notion that it wasn't a 757 at all, but merely a 757-shaped object, and yells "liar! liar! pants on fire!" at the other bunch.

It's a strange world they live in.
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Fascinating. Not only do they believe in a government conspiracy, anything that contradicts that theory is evidence OF the conspiracy. What beautiful circular logic.
 
dubfan said:
They moved it.

Created a "SKEPTICS Forum" under the "Loose Change Movie" subheading on the home page, at the very bottom.

Exercise for the reader as to why.
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If you could post me a link that'd be very appreciated, I can't seem to find it...:o
 
...Meanwhile, on the LC forum, they're STILL arguing over what constitutes a takeoff and a landing. However, no one there has emailed me to see what I think. See, if they hadn't banned me, I could just say, "Hey, that was an attempt to keep things light. I don't care how many times a plane landed or took off. I'll gladly remove that comment if you're hung up on it."
 
Guys, this is an awesome thread, and I have sat on the fringe but felt the warmth of satisfaction watching truly intelligent people carve this up like a knife to a sandwich. Funny thing is, all it comes down to is patience, keeping rational and finding facts. Basic stuff.
 
dubfan said:
Funny....they didn't exactly make it easy to find, did they? Wonder why...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3983
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I can't see the thread, I always get this:

88864463d5dad1f27.jpg


Since I can see other threads fine, I imagine there's a limited number of times a lurker can watch a particular thread.
 
Pardalis said:
I can't see the thread, I always get this:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehost/88864463d5dad1f27.jpg[/qimg]

Since I can see other threads fine, I imagine there's a limited number of times a lurker can watch a particular thread.
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Those sons of bitches. You have to be logged in to see it.

ETA: trying to get an answer. I'm at a loss as to how Gravy can see it if he's been banned, though.
 
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Pardalis said:
Sensitive material?

Or maybe it's just me, I ain't got a degree in Computer science;)
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Hey man, that degree and 25 cents will qualify you to .... DEBUNK LOOSE CHANGE!!!

LOL

I wonder if anyone else who's not registered can see the thread.
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Can anybody else confirm this? I can't see it if I'm logged out of the LC forum software.
 
Maybe just a glitch because the thread was moved, I'll try again tomorrow.


ETA: Ah, working now...
 
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