This just isnt true, you are pulling up myths from the 50's. This "fruit picker" canard is getting old. Were not talking about those types of jobs.
The wage is NOT equivalent just in the construction industry alone for example.
My point was that an illegal earning $20,000 pays a nearly equivalent amount of taxes as a legal earning $20,000, which is to say, almost none of the "income" variety, but similar amounts of the "sales" and "property" variety.
Maybe in some case, I submit here it is a net drain to the quality of life.
I'm not sure it is. The only way to tell would be to eliminate illegal immigration, something that Congress has never seriously attempted. However, it is entirely possible that our quality of life is going to decline no matter what we do. There are a number of reasons for this. The US is simply not the economic juggernaut it once was. We have grown lazy and complacent and unwilling to work hard for less money. As such, our jobs, both internal and external, are being taken by a leaner, hungrier work force.
This is true but we arent PERPETUALLY commiting the same crime.
It isn't a different crime each day they work, Pipeline. And I have attempted to argue that as crimes go, it is a fairly innocuous one, possibly even a beneficial one.
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I dont spend money at any of these places and I encourage others to do the same. I want very much for the bosses to face the firing squad and I support the Minutemen's efforts to do just that.
It is much easier to capture those who hire illegal immigrants than the illegal immigrants themselves. Simple sting operations would take care of it quite nicely, yet this is not done. Why is it not done?
And it has been my impression that you are more concerned about capturing illegal immigrants, who you call thieves and criminals, than you are about capturing those who hire them. I apologize if I have misconstrued your position, but you must admit that it would be easy to misunderstand how balanced your position is when you spend so much time only arguing one point of it. I think the firing squad is a bit extreme even for bosses though.
False dichotomy, I CAN and should be angry at both. I dont want theives with no regard for the law as neighbors, neither business owner or tresspasser.
My position is that attacking the source of the problem (illegal hiring) will be much easier and effective than attacking the result of the problem (illegal working). But I also understand why businesses want to cut costs. It is dog-eat-dog out there and businesses cut costs or they fail. Yet doing so by preying on the desperation of poverty-ridden people is, by my moral code, unethical. Businesses which do this
deserve to fail IMO.
Because they are doing it illegally? Isnt that the whole point?
No, that is not why they can do it more cheaply. It is because they work for a lower wage. I don't wish to return to the days when bosses exploited labor without fear of retribution. That's why unions formed. That's why wages rose. That's why illegals are protesting. If bosses were forced to pay a decent wage to illegals, then more jobs would open up for legals and indeed, illegals would stop coming. And this could be accomplished much more easily than trying to seal a border that is hundreds of miles long.
I dont know how this relates.
It is an attempt to explore the consequences of eliminating illegal workers. We would lose more businesses and we would pay more for everything. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, it just means that you need to be aware of the costs of doing it.
Im sure its not, but the action so far of doing nothing is sure not working!
What do you mean "doing nothing"? Are we not building walls? Are we not organizing Minutemen? Are we not excoriating illegals?
Or did you mean the "nothing" that is being done to enforce laws against companies that hire illegals. There I agree that nothing is being done, and indeed, it is not working, in spite of the walls, militias and jingoism. That makes me suspect that the answer is not more walls, militias and jingoism.
Im with this all the way! The tresspassers are invading our country, but those who hire them are TRAITORS! I very much agree with your solution here.
Good to see we can find some common ground. So are you going to write your congressmen today to urge them to prosecute the traitors? I have (though I didn't call them that).
I was doing GREAT when framers and painters were being paid 25 bucks an hour. I was doing GREAT when chefs and waiters were being paid minimum wage
Now? Forget it.
Ah, but supply and demand caught up with you. I am sorry. BTW, waiters were never paid minimum wage. They were expected to make the difference up in tips, which they usually did. This is from personal experience. I waited tables to pay my way through college.
Again your situation is MUCH different than ours. Im not telling you to suck up whatever problems you have, please dont tell us to suck up ours, unless you want to help pay for it
I am willing to help pay for it. I am prepared to shoulder higher costs, fewer possessions, and a reduced standard of living in order for us to enforce laws against illegal hirers. You have not once heard me say otherwise. I am also willing to pay more to finance schools to educate them. I'd really like to see some corporate and agricultural welfare come to an end to help pay for it, but those guys have powerful lobbyists. My letters to my congressmen can compete only poorly, as they are not stuffed with bribes.
No they are seeking to profit from breaking the law. Immigrants who wait their turn to come in and do what is expected of them are making a better life for themselves. Criminal trespassers are profiting at the expense of all the rest.
It is not the possession of legal papers that is causing the problem, it is the fact that immigrant workers, be they legal or otherwise, work more cheaply. If this were not the case, then the easy solution would be to make them all legal. But as you would probably agree, that wouldn't fix anything.
The problem is cheap labor, Pipeline. The solution is to make it unprofitable for companies to use cheap labor. The cost will be inflation and a reduction in our standard of living.
I wont even touch this one.
You were the one who asked if I had visited a public school, and I revealed that not only have I visited them, I have a good source of info on the public schools in a city that is very high in illegal immigrant population. Now you don't want to touch the topic. Odd.
Sorry our quality of life here is a lot lower than it was 12 years ago. If you are doing so well, perhaps you could help us out.
Standard of life is going to vary worldwide, and when you have an overpriced and relatively lazy workforce, as we do in the US, it is going to go down. I think I addressed this earlier. But I am not so greedy as to say that I would not be willing to share the burden, as I addressed above.
As they are a great cause of their and our suffering Im sorry if Im not so sympathetic. You realize the more money they steal, the less money we have to spend on them?
There are multiple causes and what you are doing looks to me like creating scapegoats for these problems. It is not a problem easily solved, and it becomes much harder when people not only don't show compassion, but are proud of not showing compassion for
all of the people involved.
I do not see holding everyone accountable to the same laws as demonizing.
Using pejoratives like "thieves" and "criminals" is demonizing them. It is not the mark of a person who is trying to understand all sides of an issue.
