Loose Change

[Pardalis]

This is my first post

I look forward to joining future discussions and learning a great deal.
Thanks!

Welcome

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

geggy, this is what your quote does not say:

"August 27, 2003: NIST Investigators Rule Out Weakened Steel as a Factor in Collapses"

Much as you'd like to interpret it that way.

This is very critical point that deserves reiteration. NIST stating that the steel in the towers was within spec is very different from NIST stating that the steel debris did not show signs of having exceeded its spec.

 

[chipmunk stew]

It cracks me up that the 9/11 CTs will embrace NIST's research (when it can be taken out of context and misinterpreted to their advantage) as authoritative, but dismiss their conclusions as biased and part of a cover-up.

Cognitive dissonance at its best.

 

[chipmunk stew]

This is my first post, and I wanted to thank you all for providing me with so many great links about 9-11 conspiracies.
I was recently in an online debate with a CTist who wanted me to provide proof that all of the theories he was posting were false (yet he failed to provide the proof that they weren't).
I stumbled upon this forum and all of the wonderful links to offer that proof, and didn't really need to look anywhere else! Of course, in true CTist fashion, it was met with "Nope. Can't be true because that's what they want you to believe." and "Yeah? Well, what about XYZ, then?"
I look forward to joining future discussions and learning a great deal.
Thanks!

Welcome, Pangea. Post early, post often.

 

[Pardalis]

Engineering reports should be read by engineers, not amateurs (including myself).

 

[Tirdun]

Was there a protocol in place to scramble fighters to protect D.C. airspace whenever a plane crashed in New York? (Not IS there, but WAS there, on 9/11/2001?)

No. There were intercept rules in place, rules that had never been put to the test.

Its also interesting for me to see words like "scramble" used in arguments about timeframes by people who have no idea what the word means outside the movies. I wonder if any CTer has bothered to actually look up the true launch times for an FA-18E/F or F-16C/D in full intercept mode. Do they picture hundreds or thousands of military aircraft, all over the country, sitting at the end of the runway with a pilot sitting at the stick for hours on end, waiting for the "go" signal? Do those hundreds of aircraft just sit there, idly burning through expensive J5? Are there armed sidewinder missiles sitting on their pylons and wingtips?

"There was a airforce base only 10 miles away!!!"
Yeah? And there's a fire station within 10 miles of millions of homes in America. How come so many burn down?

 

[Pardalis]

Again, I strongly believe planes crashed into all buildings and that includes the pentagon. Reason why I believe that is by hearing several witness statements and looking at photographic evidences showing debris's from an AA77 airtliner. But I'm not sure about the hijackers, though. Different websites have shown their names were on the passenger list...some didnt show their names. Hard to tell which is which.

This statement is really troubling. I'm anxious of having your thoughts on it geggy. So, the WTC towers were hit by airline planes, but not by the highjackers?

 

[aggle-rithm]

Engineering reports should be read by engineers, not amateurs (including myself).

True. He should seek out the Cliff Notes or "9/11 for Dummys".

 

[aggle-rithm]

No. There were intercept rules in place, rules that had never been put to the test.

Its also interesting for me to see words like "scramble" used in arguments about timeframes by people who have no idea what the word means outside the movies. I wonder if any CTer has bothered to actually look up the true launch times for an FA-18E/F or F-16C/D in full intercept mode. Do they picture hundreds or thousands of military aircraft, all over the country, sitting at the end of the runway with a pilot sitting at the stick for hours on end, waiting for the "go" signal? Do those hundreds of aircraft just sit there, idly burning through expensive J5? Are there armed sidewinder missiles sitting on their pylons and wingtips?

"There was a airforce base only 10 miles away!!!"
Yeah? And there's a fire station within 10 miles of millions of homes in America. How come so many burn down?

This is a good point, and it also applies to the frequent accusation by CT's that the fighters didn't fly fast enough. The difference in fuel consumption when travelling at top speed vs. minimum speed is very great compared to that of a car. Did the pilots really want to burn all their fuel rushing to the scene, when they don't even know what will be waiting for them there?

(This is, of course, putting aside the legal speed restrictions placed on the fighters.)

 

[The_Fire]

Lemme see if I can do an estimated guess on the entire "scramble a fighter squadron" thing:

1: Situation assesment: Does the situtation indicate anything else than a commercial airliner out of route? If it IS a highjacking, how will the highjackers react to the approach of a couple of fighter planes? I would say around 10-15 minutes to make sure its a "hostile" target.

2: Fueling the planes. AFAIK those things doesn't stand arround fully fueled due to the danger of explosions. Let's put that one at 20 minutes and pretend they are using a turbo-fuelline like the formula 1 fuellines. Not to mention that this also means that the fuel truck is already on site.

3: Arming the planes. Same reason as 2. Same approximate length of time.

4: Gathering the pilots. Let's exclude this and say that they are at the base. They still have to get into g-suits etc. That is NOT fast work. And it's not equiptment you stand around in for longer than you have to.
20-30 minutes.

5: Planning a flightplan to prevent the fighter planes from a: colliding with other planes b: colliding with tall buildings called "skyscrapers" (bear in mind that the passenger jets were probably in low altitude).
20-30 minutes.

6: Briefing to ensure the pilots know what they are doing and where they are going.
10-20 minutes depending on what the flightplan looks like.

7: Actually LAUNCHING the darned things. This alone will take about 15 minutes from pilot-in-cockpit to plane-in-flight due to things like taxiing the plane out on the runway etc.

Lets calculate my estimate then:
if 1,2 anbd 3 are done at the same time together with 4 an 5.
While 4 is happening, the tower is putting together a flightplan, putting it short: 20 minutes.
Briefing: 10 minutes.
Launch: 15 minutes.
Total: 45 minutes.

And then they still have to get there.....

Please feel free to correct my math if someone reading have a better understanding of these things.

While several of these things can be done simultaniously, things like the briefing takes time due to the safety of the pilots and the citizens of the city. Flying a fighter isn't like driving a car from a to b.

ETA: Sorry, discovered a mistake in the calculations. Found out that 1,2,3,4 and 5 would probably be done at the same time in an organised enviroment such as the airforce.

 

[Pardalis]

I don't think Superman would have got there in time:

- Hearing the pilots scream with his super hearing (1 minute)
- Finding a clever way to get out of Lois Lane's company unseen (5 to 10 min)
- Finding a phone booth or other hiding place to change (5 min)
- Change into Superman (30 sec)
- Finding the first highjacked plane (5 min)

we're already at 20 minutes.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

No. There were intercept rules in place, rules that had never been put to the test.

Its also interesting for me to see words like "scramble" used in arguments about timeframes by people who have no idea what the word means outside the movies. I wonder if any CTer has bothered to actually look up the true launch times for an FA-18E/F or F-16C/D in full intercept mode. Do they picture hundreds or thousands of military aircraft, all over the country, sitting at the end of the runway with a pilot sitting at the stick for hours on end, waiting for the "go" signal? Do those hundreds of aircraft just sit there, idly burning through expensive J5? Are there armed sidewinder missiles sitting on their pylons and wingtips?

"There was a airforce base only 10 miles away!!!"
Yeah? And there's a fire station within 10 miles of millions of homes in America. How come so many burn down?

An excellent post.

However, you forgot to say "der."

 

[Z]

No. There were intercept rules in place, rules that had never been put to the test.

Its also interesting for me to see words like "scramble" used in arguments about timeframes by people who have no idea what the word means outside the movies. I wonder if any CTer has bothered to actually look up the true launch times for an FA-18E/F or F-16C/D in full intercept mode. Do they picture hundreds or thousands of military aircraft, all over the country, sitting at the end of the runway with a pilot sitting at the stick for hours on end, waiting for the "go" signal? Do those hundreds of aircraft just sit there, idly burning through expensive J5? Are there armed sidewinder missiles sitting on their pylons and wingtips?

"There was a airforce base only 10 miles away!!!"
Yeah? And there's a fire station within 10 miles of millions of homes in America. How come so many burn down?

Reminds me of the time I spent on Ft. Bragg. First deployment for our unit in wartime was one platoon at 18 hours when on alert status, the remaining unit within 24-36 hours, as Air Force timetables permitted.

18 hours. For about 20 guys and their gear. Rigs were already loaded on trains and sitting at the airfield.

While I imagine it's far faster to deploy aircraft, I still don't see an immediate response in less than two hours. Especially when the country wasn't at war.

 

[Z]

Lemme see if I can do an estimated guess on the entire "scramble a fighter squadron" thing:

1: Situation assesment: Does the situtation indicate anything else than a commercial airliner out of route? If it IS a highjacking, how will the highjackers react to the approach of a couple of fighter planes? I would say around 10-15 minutes to make sure its a "hostile" target.

2: Fueling the planes. AFAIK those things doesn't stand arround fully fueled due to the danger of explosions. Let's put that one at 20 minutes and pretend they are using a turbo-fuelline like the formula 1 fuellines. Not to mention that this also means that the fuel truck is already on site.

3: Arming the planes. Same reason as 2. Same approximate length of time.

4: Gathering the pilots. Let's exclude this and say that they are at the base. They still have to get into g-suits etc. That is NOT fast work. And it's not equiptment you stand around in for longer than you have to.
20-30 minutes.

5: Planning a flightplan to prevent the fighter planes from a: colliding with other planes b: colliding with tall buildings called "skyscrapers" (bear in mind that the passenger jets were probably in low altitude).
20-30 minutes.

6: Briefing to ensure the pilots know what they are doing and where they are going.
10-20 minutes depending on what the flightplan looks like.

7: Actually LAUNCHING the darned things. This alone will take about 15 minutes from pilot-in-cockpit to plane-in-flight due to things like taxiing the plane out on the runway etc.

Lets calculate my estimate then:
if 1,2 anbd 3 are done at the same time together with 4 an 5.
While 4 is happening, the tower is putting together a flightplan, putting it short: 20 minutes.
Briefing: 10 minutes.
Launch: 15 minutes.
Total: 45 minutes.

And then they still have to get there.....

Please feel free to correct my math if someone reading have a better understanding of these things.

While several of these things can be done simultaniously, things like the briefing takes time due to the safety of the pilots and the citizens of the city. Flying a fighter isn't like driving a car from a to b.

ETA: Sorry, discovered a mistake in the calculations. Found out that 1,2,3,4 and 5 would probably be done at the same time in an organised enviroment such as the airforce.

Note on 2 and 3: there's a good chance a number of craft in 'alert' status were already fueled and armed, just in case. Still, recalling personnel can take as long as half an hour, by itself.

 

[The_Fire]

Thank you Zaayrdragon.

 

[Belz...]

Yeah Turn on the oven at 500 degree F and stick your head into it and see if your hair vaporizes. Steel melts at approx. 2500-2750 degree F. Do the math. der.

Hair vapourises at 500F ?

NIST has collected 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage of the towers.

As opposed to what SOME have said.

Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 degrees C.”

Hasn't it been shown that steel is weakened at that temp ?

Its quite simple and clear...you don't need to be an intellectual to figure it out.

And yet specialists disagree with you. See a pattern ?

Pentagon was struck 40 minutes after the first strike in NYC without any scramblings of fighter jets to protect the skies of DC, let alone an air force base locating merely 10 miles from the white house. der.

As someone said before, do you know how many planes fly over DC ?

 

[kookbreaker]

Hasn't it been shown that steel is weakened at that temp ?

Its irrelevant. The steel NIST has collected and identified and tested for temperature exposure was only from the perimeter. The core column pieces exposed to the maximum heat were pretty much unlocatable.

NIST ran their temperture tests with intact pieces similar to those internal columns. They prettymuch agree with what the model says happened.

 

[geggy]

Heh, you guys crack me up...

With all the warnings the US government had received, why did they not notify the Air Force about the heightened alert in NYC, just in case they should as well be on alert? After the north tower was struck, the story broke out on television all over the world yet the Pentagon was struck 40 minutes later without any deployment of fighter jets. There were enormous evidence showing wargame exercises were being performed that morning.

You want math???

8:13 AA11 last transmission with Boston ATC.

8:13 to 8:20 AA11 goes off course and is hijacked.

8:20 AA11 transponder signal stops.

8:36 NORAD spokesman, Major Mike Snyder, confirmed that the FAA notified NORAD of AA11 hijacking.

8:38 Boston notifies NORAD that AA11 has been hijacked.

8:40 FAA notifies NORAD that AA11 has been hijacked.

8:43 FAA notifies NORAD that UA175 has been hijacked.

8:46 AA11 impacts the North Tower of the WTC between the 94th and 98th floors.

8:46 NORAD finally orders Otis to scramble two F-15's. NORAD has held on to this vital information for at least 6, 8 or 10 minutes, and probably up to 26 or 32 minutes.

8:52 Two F-15's from Otis are deployed.

9:02:54 UA175 impacts the South Tower of the WTC between the 78th and 84th floors. NORAD says the F15's from Otis are still 71 miles away. This means their average flight speed was only 23.9% of their top speed in trying to intercept UA 175. Otis is 153 miles from WTC - F15's have a top speed of 1875 MPH. Minus 71 miles from 153 miles = 82 miles covered in 11 minutes from 8:52 to 9:03
60 minutes divided by 11 minutes = 5.45 x 82 miles = 447.3 MPH divided by 1875 MPH = 23.9%.

9:30 Three F16's from Langley are airborne.

9:37 AA77 hits the Pentagon. NORAD says the F16's from Langley were still 105 miles and 12 minutes away.

9:49 It takes the F16's from Langley 19 minutes to reach Washington. This means their average flight speed was only 27.4% of their top speed in trying to protect our nations capital. Langley is 130 miles from the Pentagon
F16's have a top speed of 1500 MPH - 60 minutes divided by 19 minutes = 3.16 x 130 miles = 410.5 MPH divided by 1500 MPH = 27.4%.

Andrews Air Force Base has two fighter wings that are 10 miles from the Pentagon, yet they waited till after all of the attacks were over to finally deploy.

The US spends at least 350+ billion a year on defense system. Also air force is by far and away the most technologically advanced defense system in the world. Seems like a waste, yes?

 

[kookbreaker]

88:46 NORAD finally orders Otis to scramble two F-15's. NORAD has held on to this vital information for at least 6, 8 or 10 minutes, and probably up to 26 or 32 minutes.

Wow. 6 minutes. You do realise that were not talking about a hotline from FAA's proles to NORAD decision makers. NORAD also has to check what is available and may have other entanglements. There's also the little detail that HIJACKED PLANES WERE NOT USED AS WEAPONS UNTIL 9-11!

Ergo, a scrambled plane would have been to check and escort, not intercept.

8:52 Two F-15's from Otis are deployed.

9:02:54 UA175 impacts the South Tower of the WTC between the 78th and 84th floors. NORAD says the F15's from Otis are still 71 miles away. This means their average flight speed was only 23.9% of their top speed in trying to intercept UA 175. Otis is 153 miles from WTC - F15's have a top speed of 1875 MPH. Minus 71 miles from 153 miles = 82 miles covered in 11 minutes from 8:52 to 9:03
60 minutes divided by 11 minutes = 5.45 x 82 miles = 447.3 MPH divided by 1875 MPH = 23.9%.

Fighter Jets may have high speeds, but they do not have permission to use them, even in an emergency. Read what the pilots have said. They also have to account for any time in the air for escorting a traditionally hijacked plane, it would be quite a problem if the planes went up burned up all their fuel racing to meet a plane, then had to leave for lack of fuel.

This, and about a hundred other factors are things you did not consider. 911myths touches on a few of the problems

http://911myths.com/html/fighter_speeds.html

The US spends at least 350+ billion a year on defense system. Also air force is by far and away the most technologically advanced defense system in the world. Seems like a waste, yes?

No. We build a machine to fight wars, and it does so very well. This was not war. Der.

 

[geggy]

geggy, this is what your quote does not say:

"August 27, 2003: NIST Investigators Rule Out Weakened Steel as a Factor in Collapses"

Much as you'd like to interpret it that way.

Uh that the buildings were ridiculously overiengineered, including the 47 steel central columns in each of the towers...is that what you wanted to know?