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Loose Change

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Heh you've got to be kidding me. Either you didn't look thoroughly at the links I've just provided or you're just...dumb...

Here are things you've called evidence:

Marvin Bush -> Debunked
30 hour power-down -> Debunked
George Bush's reaction -> Irrelevant
Bomb Sniffing Dogs Removed -> Debunked
Woman has hair -> Irrelvant and Debunked

This has been your level of evidence quality so far, so do not refer to us as dumb. Once that lump of rotting phlegm between your ears accidently gets a static charge that will let it pretend to be a single neuron you might realise how freaking stupid and disorganized your arguements and evidence are.
 
You say disjointed factoids, I say contradictions.

Yeah Turn on the oven at 500 degree F and stick your head into it and see if your hair vaporizes. Steel melts at approx. 2500-2750 degree F. Do the math. der.

I don't believe at all that you've looked into the link that I provided so I'll just copy and paste this part...

"August 27, 2003: NIST Investigators Rule Out Weak Steel as a Factor in Collapses At the end of a two-day meeting to discuss the progress of their investigation of the WTC collapses on 9/11, National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) investigators say that early tests on steel beams recovered from the World Trade Center showed they met or were stronger than design requirements. NIST has collected 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage of the towers. Tests have found that the steel beams exceeded requirements to bear 36,000 pounds per square inch, and were often capable of bearing around 42,000 pounds per square inch. Lead investigator Shyam Sunder says that if further testing corroborates these findings, this will rule out weak steel as a factor in the collapses. [Associated Press, 9/28/2003; National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/26/2003] The final report of the NIST investigation, released in 2005, will corroborate this finding: “Overall, approximately 87 percent of all perimeter and core column steel tested exceeded the required minimum yield strengths specified in design documents. Test data for the remaining samples were below specifications, but were within the expected variability and did not affect the safety of the towers on September 11, 2001.” It also will point out: “Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 degrees C. ... Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 degrees C. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 degrees C.” [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 10/2005 ]" der.


Its quite simple and clear...you don't need to be an intellectual to figure it out.

In one of the links I provided explained the US had received multiple warnings prior to 9/11...some are very, very clear showing where AND when it was going to happen.

Wargame exercises were performed nurmerous times, with the WTC as one of the targets prior to 9/11 AND on the morning of 9/11.

Pentagon was struck 40 minutes after the first strike in NYC without any scramblings of fighter jets to protect the skies of DC, let alone an air force base locating merely 10 miles from the white house. der.
 
But I did lay out bunch of evidence but it hasn't gotten through your head....I made it clear why I thought all three buildings were brought down with explosives and I haven't yet been convinced by most of the posters' speculations...

Here are the evidence, make sure you look through completely and use common sense:

Timeline of WTC collapsing:

cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&investigations:_a_detailed_look=wtcinvestigation

More evidence not relating to the collapsing of WTC...

Warnings before 9/11 timeline:

cooperativeresearch.org/
timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=warnings

War games excercise/NORAD standdown timeline:

cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises

Complete 9/11 timelines:

cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

Always remember, cover up is a conspiracy...

I quickly read the timeline, didn't read everything back to 1954, I do have a life, but so far, all that I've read confirms that the towers were hit by airline jets piloted by Al Qaeda agents and that the US intelligence agencies were grossly incompetent at handling the threat (AKA the official story). Also, it's easy for us in 2006 who know what hapenned that day to put all these warning signs together, but remember that none of these warnings point to specific targets and specific airports. Even though I don't excuse the lack of leadership and communications between the various agencies, I don't expect them to have forsight, or precognition powers.
 
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geggy, can you quote me any place in the timeline that says with evidence that someone planted at any time explosive in all three WTC buildings?

Can you post somewhere in the timeline where the highjackers didn't board the airplaines and didn't plunge the airplains into the WTC and the pentagon?
 
Well I do have a life too. I own a tmobile sidekick with internet provider (dial up speed...ugh) and makes it easier for me to do bunch of readings anywhere at anytime.

The incompetence theory is laughable, it's impossible. There were numurous top officials who have been awarded with medals and promotions and none have been fired after sept 11. How do you explain that?
 
You say disjointed factoids, I say contradictions.

Yeah Turn on the oven at 500 degree F and stick your head into it and see if your hair vaporizes. Steel melts at approx. 2500-2750 degree F. Do the math. der.

I don't believe at all that you've looked into the link that I provided so I'll just copy and paste this part...

"August 27, 2003: NIST Investigators Rule Out Weak Steel as a Factor in Collapses At the end of a two-day meeting to discuss the progress of their investigation of the WTC collapses on 9/11, National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) investigators say that early tests on steel beams recovered from the World Trade Center showed they met or were stronger than design requirements. NIST has collected 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage of the towers. Tests have found that the steel beams exceeded requirements to bear 36,000 pounds per square inch, and were often capable of bearing around 42,000 pounds per square inch. Lead investigator Shyam Sunder says that if further testing corroborates these findings, this will rule out weak steel as a factor in the collapses. [Associated Press, 9/28/2003; National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/26/2003] The final report of the NIST investigation, released in 2005, will corroborate this finding: “Overall, approximately 87 percent of all perimeter and core column steel tested exceeded the required minimum yield strengths specified in design documents. Test data for the remaining samples were below specifications, but were within the expected variability and did not affect the safety of the towers on September 11, 2001.” It also will point out: “Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 degrees C. ... Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 degrees C. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 degrees C.” [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 10/2005 ]" der.

.
So the steel met the specifications of A36 steel. Gee-something that actually performs as advertised. What's the big deal about that?
A36 loses 1/2 its strength at 500F (about 260C) and 600C is 1080F-by which time the strength is down to around 25%
That's how blacksmiths make their living...
 
geggy, can you quote me any place in the timeline that says with evidence that someone planted at any time explosive in all three WTC buildings?

Can you post somewhere in the timeline where the highjackers didn't board the airplaines and didn't plunge the airplains into the WTC and the pentagon?

Show me an evidence that fire brought down the towers.

Again, I strongly believe planes crashed into all buildings and that includes the pentagon. Reason why I believe that is by hearing several witness statements and looking at photographic evidences showing debris's from an AA77 airtliner. But I'm not sure about the hijackers, though. Different websites have shown their names were on the passenger list...some didnt show their names. Hard to tell which is which.
 
Show me an evidence that fire brought down the towers.

Again, I strongly believe planes crashed into all buildings and that includes the pentagon. Reason why I believe that is by hearing several witness statements and looking at photographic evidences showing debris's from an AA77 airtliner. But I'm not sure about the hijackers, though. Different websites have shown their names were on the passenger list...some didnt show their names. Hard to tell which is which.

So who piloted these planes into these buildings?

BTW, the plane crashes AND the subsequent fires brought down the towers.
 
So let me guet this straight geggy. According to you, there were numerous warning signs of an Al Qaeda attack that the US intelligence didn'thandle, ultimately the Al Qaeda attacks didn't occur because the highjackers didn't highjack the planes?
 
You say disjointed factoids, I say contradictions.

Only if you ignore basic metallurgy.

Yeah Turn on the oven at 500 degree F and stick your head into it and see if your hair vaporizes. Steel melts at approx. 2500-2750 degree F. Do the math. der.

Learn about what happens to steel structural strength way below the melting temperature, der.
 
You say disjointed factoids, I say contradictions.

Oh, well that's completely different! Let me rephrase:

"So... your concept of intelligent debate is to dig up a bunch of contradictions and handing it over to ME to construct YOUR argument?"

Yeah Turn on the oven at 500 degree F and stick your head into it and see if your hair vaporizes. Steel melts at approx. 2500-2750 degree F. Do the math. der.

OK:
Oven temperature = 500
Melting point of steel = 2500

Ummm....

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about when I say you must present a clear, unbroken chain of logic if you want to convince anyone.

What math am I supposed to perform?
What is the relevance of the melting point of steel?


I don't believe at all that you've looked into the link that I provided so I'll just copy and paste this part...

"August 27, 2003: NIST Investigators Rule Out Weak Steel as a Factor in Collapses At the end of a two-day meeting to discuss the progress of their investigation of the WTC collapses on 9/11, National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) investigators say that early tests on steel beams recovered from the World Trade Center showed they met or were stronger than design requirements. NIST has collected 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage of the towers. Tests have found that the steel beams exceeded requirements to bear 36,000 pounds per square inch, and were often capable of bearing around 42,000 pounds per square inch. Lead investigator Shyam Sunder says that if further testing corroborates these findings, this will rule out weak steel as a factor in the collapses. [Associated Press, 9/28/2003; National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/26/2003] The final report of the NIST investigation, released in 2005, will corroborate this finding: “Overall, approximately 87 percent of all perimeter and core column steel tested exceeded the required minimum yield strengths specified in design documents. Test data for the remaining samples were below specifications, but were within the expected variability and did not affect the safety of the towers on September 11, 2001.” It also will point out: “Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 degrees C. ... Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 degrees C. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 degrees C.” [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 10/2005 ]" der.


Its quite simple and clear...you don't need to be an intellectual to figure it out.

Then you should have no problem putting together a coherent argument and presenting it. What are you waiting for?

Think about this: If explosives were used on the exterior column panels, don't you think the temperature would have exceeded 600 degrees?

Also, you may want to look at the engineering report as to why the towers collapsed. The exterior columns did not have to reach high temperatures for it to collapse, because it was the steel connecting the concrete floor to the supports that failed, not the supports themselves. Once the floor fell away, the supports lost their structural integrity, since the floors were designed to keep the columns rigid, at the same time the columns kept the floor in place.

In one of the links I provided explained the US had received multiple warnings prior to 9/11...some are very, very clear showing where AND when it was going to happen.

Well, I guess they didn't handle it very well, did they? Too bad.

There are numerous examples in history where a victim of an attack had ample warning, but got caught by surprise anyway. Do you think this is ALWAYS indicative of a conspiracy?

Wargame exercises were performed nurmerous times, with the WTC as one of the targets prior to 9/11 AND on the morning of 9/11.

Playing Microsoft "Flight Simulator" doesn't really qualify as a "war game".

Pentagon was struck 40 minutes after the first strike in NYC without any scramblings of fighter jets to protect the skies of DC, let alone an air force base locating merely 10 miles from the white house. der.

Was there a protocol in place to scramble fighters to protect D.C. airspace whenever a plane crashed in New York? (Not IS there, but WAS there, on 9/11/2001?)
 
Well I do have a life too. I own a tmobile sidekick with internet provider (dial up speed...ugh) and makes it easier for me to do bunch of readings anywhere at anytime.

The incompetence theory is laughable, it's impossible. There were numurous top officials who have been awarded with medals and promotions and none have been fired after sept 11. How do you explain that?

The top officials' bosses are incompetent?

Edited to add:

If you have never worked someplace where incompetent people are praised and rewarded, then you are very fortunate, indeed. Most of us aren't so lucky.
 
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Yeah Turn on the oven at 500 degree F and stick your head into it and see if your hair vaporizes. Steel melts at approx. 2500-2750 degree F. Do the math. der.
First, no one claims that temperatures in the building were anywhere near the melting point of steel. Next, the lady in the video/photos was not in the middle of the fires, was she? She was standing near the edge of the building, where the aircraft had entered and swept away all the flammable materials from? After the fuel exploded, there was nothing else at that specific spot left to burn. This was also a point that looks to be upwind of the fires, since it's not obscured by smoke. There is just no reason to believe that the point where she's standing is hot enough to melt hair.

I don't believe at all that you've looked into the link that I provided so I'll just copy and paste this part...

"August 27, 2003: NIST Investigators Rule Out Weak Steel as a Factor in Collapses
So the steel met its specifications. Is this somehow evidence in your favor? Please explain how. I honestly can't imagine why you would have posted this.

Show me an evidence that fire brought down the towers.
Well, we have overwhelming evidence that the towers were struck by jet airliners with lots of fuel, that fires raged in those towers for a good while before the collapses, that the collapses seemed to start at the points where the fires were burning, and undisputable physics references that show that steel loses much of its strength at temperatures you see in office fires. There.

Now do you have any evidence that the towers fell for some other reason? Because with all of that uncontested information, that's a very reasonable explanation, so it will take really strong evidence to the contrary to dispute it.
 
geggy, I'm honestly trying really hard to figure out your theory. So, according to you Al Qaeda planned the 9/11 attacks, the US government knew about it (with bits and pieces), ultimately A Quaeda dropped the idea so the US gov decided to go ahead with it themselves. I'm I right so far geggy?
 
This is my first post, and I wanted to thank you all for providing me with so many great links about 9-11 conspiracies.
I was recently in an online debate with a CTist who wanted me to provide proof that all of the theories he was posting were false (yet he failed to provide the proof that they weren't).
I stumbled upon this forum and all of the wonderful links to offer that proof, and didn't really need to look anywhere else! Of course, in true CTist fashion, it was met with "Nope. Can't be true because that's what they want you to believe." and "Yeah? Well, what about XYZ, then?"
I look forward to joining future discussions and learning a great deal.
Thanks!
 
Or is it that the US gov and Al Quaeda were in on it together, so that the US gov would have a reason to go to Afghanistan to beat the crap out of Al Quaeda. Boy, these Al Qaeda really are stupid.
 
geggy said:
I don't believe at all that you've looked into the link that I provided so I'll just copy and paste this part...

"August 27, 2003: NIST Investigators Rule Out Weak Steel as a Factor in Collapses
So the steel met its specifications. Is this somehow evidence in your favor? Please explain how. I honestly can't imagine why you would have posted this.
geggy, this is what your quote does not say:

"August 27, 2003: NIST Investigators Rule Out Weakened Steel as a Factor in Collapses"

Much as you'd like to interpret it that way.
 
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