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And Nothing Heard My Scream

Jeff Corkern said:
The value of the humans killed: Zero.
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How exactly is this statement true if people do not have souls? Would seem to be the opposite to me, if people have a soul then no value would be lost. The person would still exist somewhere, nothing lost only changed. Without a soul however, that person is lost, forever. They no longer exist, except within memories, in which the person has now been delegated to the past tense.

This is why, as an atheist, I consider murder such a despicable crime. The value lost is not zero, but the entire value of that person has been destroyed by someone else with no justification for doing so.:mad:
 
I less than three logic said:
This is why, as an atheist, I consider murder such a despicable crime. The value lost is not zero, but the entire value of that person has been destroyed by someone else with no justification for doing so.:mad:
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He seems to be one of those who argue that things are worthless if they aren't eternal.

Which is just moronic. If something that lasts for a day or a year or ten years is without value, why does it suddenly become valueable if it lasts forever?
There's a similar falacy present in the recent thread: "Story About the Meaning of Life" or something along those lines. (sorry too lazy to do a search for it, I doubt anyone wants to bother reading through it now anyway). I don't know where this strange value of eternity comes from, if it wasn't present all along. Nor, I suspect, does Jeff.

To Jeff:
You know why I buy chocolate bars? I'll give you a hint. It isn't because they are good for my teeth. I put value on the transitory pleasure they give me.
 
As others have so ably pointed out, the opening post is a load of bullocks. Some people don't deserve the brain they were born with.

So do we have a post and run here? Sure looks like it.
 
I have to agree. Another hit and trollster. No courage to rebut any criticisim.

Not only is it bad in logic and rational, the writting style is trite and hamfisted.
 
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Steven Howard said:
I walked across the page in a fog of dense, confusing prose. Run-on sentences and trite metaphors pounded my face like a luke-warm spoon. I picked my way through the rocks of twisted and spurious logic, looking for one that was strong enough to support an argument. More awkwardly-structured sentences were only a paragraph break away....snip...I did the only rational thing. I quit being an illogical homophobic diabetic Jewish pathological liar and serial killer, and became a Presbyterian dentist with an allergy to string beans.
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dude, this is brilliant.
 
The_Fire said:
[totally ot]
HarryKeogh, have you by any chance read the
Necroscope series?

[/totally ot]
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yep...and I'm such a geek I'm looking forward to meeting Brian Lumley when he does a reading at a NYC Barnes and Noble next week.
 
Just brilliant!

Steven Howard said:
I walked across the page in a fog of dense, confusing prose. Run-on sentences and trite metaphors pounded my face like a luke-warm spoon. I picked my way through the rocks of twisted and spurious logic, looking for one that was strong enough to support an argument. More awkwardly-structured sentences were only a paragraph break away.

<SNIP>

I did the only rational thing. I quit being an illogical homophobic diabetic Jewish pathological liar and serial killer, and became a Presbyterian dentist with an allergy to string beans.
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Come on then ……. When is the second part of the trilogy coming out? I must know what the alligators represent some metaphor of conspiracy theories perhaps?
 
OK, that other thread is scary. I thought the original story was meant to be satirical towards woo-believers, but this guys is 100% serious. If people don't have an eternal soul, we are all worthless and it's ok for us to do whatever we want as long as we don't get caught. It's a false dichotomy where morality only exists to protect our immortal soul. No soul = no morality. What a crock.

I still say the story has merit, but for being an example of the garbage some people honestly believe. Thanks to Jeff for a look into his twisted mind. The lesson for the rest of us is that he is not alone in his beliefs.
 
hailslaanesh said:
Is this based on your feelings or is it tongue in cheek?
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This is an allegory, intended to illustrate a point of logic.

If there are no souls, the only rational thing to be is a sociopath.

Without an immortal soul, how what Michael does affects other people is of no rational concern to him.

Because he can escape the consequences of his actions, you see.

If Michael is certain no human will find out at all, or until AFTER he is dead----a situation I was careful to make certain was clear---it is entirely rational to do WHATEVER he wants to get whatever it is he wants, up to and including killing, as many people as necessary. There will be NO physical repercussions to him, none.

To state it in abstract theoretical terms, without an immortal soul, Michael's emotional state is NOT PHYSICALLY LINKED to anyone else's emotional state.

But having an immortal soul changes this equation radically.

Let me make this as clear as I can. Suppose you have five dollars, somebody shoots you in the back under circumstances under which he knows he will never be caught, and takes your five dollars.

If you don't have a soul, you blink right out and disappear, and the guy who shot you goes off fat and HAPPY. No bad consequences to him. HE WILL ESCAPE THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ACTIONS, and that makes what he's done rational.

But suppose you DO have an immortal soul, an existence that cannot be terminated by any means. Both of you do.

You're going to be a bit, ahem, STEAMED about getting shot in the back. Right?

Even if nobody else ever finds out, YOU KNOW. And somewhere, somehow, you're going to find that jerk and MAKE HIM PAY.

If you have an immortal soul, THAT JERK WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO ESCAPE THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ACTIONS. You're not about to let that happen.

This is the primary effect of immortal souls. YOU CANNOT ESCAPE THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS.

To state it in abstract theoretical terms, immortal souls have the effect of PHYSICALLY interconnecting everyone's emotional state.

He made YOU unhappy----you made HIM unhappy.

Now everything balances.

Elsewhere in this forum, I have asked people to speculate on how having a soul would affect human behavior.

It is now possible to predict one such effect.

If people have souls, the assumption that YOU CANNOT ESCAPE THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS willl be deeply buried in their society.

Do me a favor, hailslaanesh. Look around at the society you live in. Can you find anything where this assumption appears?

---Are there any TV shows that revolve around the assumption that you cannot escape the consequences of your actions?

---Are there any societal institutions that revolve around this assumption?

--Do you know of any incidents in your own life where somebody was not allowed to get away with what he had done wrong, even after many years?

Anything else?
 
Jeff Corkern said:
This is an allegory, intended to illustrate a point of logic.

If there are no souls, the only rational thing to be is a sociopath.
Click to expand...
This is why religious nutters scare me, the only thing keeping some of them from becoming mass murdering lunatics is the fear of going to hell.
 
Jeff, I agree that society does try to make you believe that your actions will have consequences. Society would not have been the success (and humans for that matter) if people did not conform. I drew similar conclusions to you when I was about 18 or 19 and thought as a lot of young people thought: that it was ridiculous to live by society's rules.

But now I am a husband and father and regardless of whether anyone has soul's or not, I appreciate the fact that 99% of people are happy to live by society's rules. It is good to know I can wake up and go to work and when I get home to see that no sociopath has done anything to my love ones.

Another way I like to think of it is: Life is a game. Society has made life a safer game for people. The sooner you know the rules, the better you get at the game and then before you know it you have mastered the game ie. being happy, having loved ones and being financially secure.

The fact that you think the lack of a soul means you have to be a sociopath, is proof that you are an angry young person more than anything. Been there, done that. :D
 
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