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The difference between aetheists and religious

So why can't I come to a conclusion that there is no God. I have had others demanding some proof there is no God. Why? Burden of proof falls on his existence.

Why?

Imagine if we were members of a jury sitting in on the God case for last couple thousand years waiting for the believers to supply any concrete evidence. The believer’s lawyer comes up with anecdotal evidence, but nothing concrete. He tries psuedo-science to sway the jury. He tries awe us with the complexity of the universe. Of course this is better then the early part of the trial when he simply threatened the jury and demanded they rule in his favor. When something doesn’t work he moves on to another tactic which is usually an old idea with a new twist and name. I, as a juror, am ready to cast my vote as the opposition simply states, “No evidence = No God.”

So, like a tired juror, I am convinced there is no God. Enough time has passed to convince me otherwise, but no evidence has surfaced.

Supose we took your jury and tried to convince them that the nutrino untill 1931 the approach by the defence of the trial could have been no different from that proposed by the defence in the god case. Thus unless you claim there is something amazing about the last 75 years you are also forced to reject the existance of the neutrino

To answer the original question, atheist have thought about the existence of God and concluded it can not be. Believers follow blindly and never step out of their faith to examine what they believe in.

Not consistant with the evidence since that forces you to conclude that no religion can grow faster than the rate at which it's adhearents can have offspring.
 
Thank you all for answering my question to the best of your abilities. After reading all the responses, I see I have drawn all three sides of the spectrum: Believers, skeptics, and atheists.

Some of the posts I read can be taken as quite disturbing (depending on who the reader is). I can't see how someone can have blind faith and not ever question their beliefs. I also can't see how someone can rule out any possibility that something exists that has not been discovered yet. Yet, it seems perfectly reasonable for somebody to be skeptical towards the entire topic.

EDIT: Keep 'em coming...
 
I'm not saying Einstein was necessarily a theist, but I would not call him an atheist until sufficient proof has been provided.

Perhaps Einstein wasn't an atheist in an absolute sense, but certainly any Christian would consider him such. To me, the following quote from a 1927 letter indicates his lack of belief in the god of the Jews and Christians.

I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation.

This 1954 quote is also telling:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

Or this one from 1941:

The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature.

One must remember that Einstein was under fire from both the Catholics and Jews for his work. Many of his comments about god and religion were made to defend himself from such pressure. Considering that in the times in which he lived the Catholic church still had the kind of influence that could stifle scientific progress, Einstein at least had to publicly placate the church.
In my opinion, when Einstein referred to god, he was referring to the order that makes up the universe, or that "Nature is God". He often referenced Spinoza when discussing his beliefs.
Edge's post doesn't change my opinion.
I will also grant that this is all our interpretation of bits and pieces of what he said.
 
Religion and Science: Irreconcilable?

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A response to a greeting sent by the Liberal Ministers' Club of New York City. Published in The Christian Register, June, 1948. Published in Ideas and Opinions, Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1954.

Does there truly exist an insuperable contradiction between religion and science? Can religion be superseded by science? The answers to these questions have, for centuries, given rise to considerable dispute and, indeed, bitter fighting. Yet, in my own mind there can be no doubt that in both cases a dispassionate consideration can only lead to a negative answer. What complicates the solution, however, is the fact that while most people readily agree on what is meant by "science," they are likely to differ on the meaning of "religion."

As to science, we may well define it for our purpose as "methodical thinking directed toward finding regulative connections between our sensual experiences." Science, in the immediate, produces knowledge and, indirectly, means of action. It leads to methodical action if definite goals are set up in advance. For the function of setting up goals and passing statements of value transcends its domain. While it is true that science, to the extent of its grasp of causative connections, may reach important conclusions as to the compatibility and incompatibility of goals and evaluations, the independent and fundamental definitions regarding goals and values remain beyond science's reach.

As regards religion, on the other hand, one is generally agreed that it deals with goals and evaluations and, in general, with the emotional foundation of human thinking and acting, as far as these are not predetermined by the inalterable hereditary disposition of the human species. Religion is concerned with man's attitude toward nature at large, with the establishing of ideals for the individual and communal life, and with mutual human relationship. These ideals religion attempts to attain by exerting an educational influence on tradition and through the development and promulgation of certain easily accessible thoughts and narratives (epics and myths) which are apt to influence evaluation and action along the lines of the accepted ideals.

It is this mythical, or rather this symbolic, content of the religious traditions which is likely to come into conflict with science. This occurs whenever this religious stock of ideas contains dogmatically fixed statements on subjects which belong in the domain of science. Thus, it is of vital importance for the preservation of true religion that such conflicts be avoided when they arise from subjects which, in fact, are not really essential for the pursuance of the religious aims.

When we consider the various existing religions as to their essential substance, that is, divested of their myths, they do not seem to me to differ as basically from each other as the proponents of the "relativistic" or conventional theory wish us to believe. And this is by no means surprising. For the moral attitudes of a people that is supported by religion need always aim at preserving and promoting the sanity and vitality of the community and its individuals, since otherwise this community is bound to perish. A people that were to honor falsehood, defamation, fraud, and murder would be unable, indeed, to subsist for very long.

When confronted with a specific case, however, it is no easy task to determine clearly what is desirable and what should be eschewed, just as we find it difficult to decide what exactly it is that makes good painting or good music. It is something that may be felt intuitively more easily than rationally comprehended. Likewise, the great moral teachers of humanity were, in a way, artistic geniuses in the art of living. In addition to the most elementary precepts directly motivated by the preservation of life and the sparing of unnecessary suffering, there are others to which, although they are apparently not quite commensurable to the basic precepts, we nevertheless attach considerable imporcance. Should truth, for instance, be sought unconditionally even where its attainment and its accessibility to all would entail heavy sacrifices in toil and happiness? There are many such questions which, from a rational vantage point, cannot easily be answered or cannot be answered at all. Yet, I do not think that the so-called "relativistic" viewpoint is correct, not even when dealing with the more subtle moral decisions.

When considering the actual living conditions of presentday civilized humanity from the standpoint of even the most elementary religious commands, one is bound to experience a feeling of deep and painful disappointment at what one sees. For while religion prescribes brotherly love in the relations among the individuals and groups, the actual spectacle more resembles a battlefield than an orchestra. Everywhere, in economic as well as in political life, the guiding principle is one of ruthless striving for success at the expense of one's fellow. men. This competitive spirit prevails even in school and, destroying all feelings of human fraternity and cooperation, conceives of achievement not as derived from the love for productive and thoughtful work, but as springing from personal ambition and fear of rejection.

There are pessimists who hold that such a state of affairs is necessarily inherent in human nature; it is those who propound such views that are the enemies of true religion, for they imply thereby that religious teachings are utopian ideals and unsuited to afford guidance in human affairs. The study of the social patterns in certain so-called primitive cultures, however, seems to have made it sufficiently evident that such a defeatist view is wholly unwarranted. Whoever is concerned with this problem, a crucial one in the study of religion as such, is advised to read the description of the Pueblo Indians in Ruth Benedict's book, Patterns of Culture. Under the hardest living conditions, this tribe has apparently accomplished the difficult task of delivering its people from the scourge of competitive spirit and of fostering in it a temperate, cooperative conduct of life, free of external pressure and without any curtailment of happiness.

The interpretation of religion, as here advanced, implies a dependence of science on the religious attitude, a relation which, in our predominantly materialistic age, is only too easily overlooked. While it is true that scientific results are entirely independent from religious or moral considerations, those individuals to whom we owe the great creative achievements of science were all of them imbued with the truly religious conviction that this universe of ours is something perfect and susceptible to the rational striving for knowledge. If this conviction had not been a strongly emotional one and if those searching for knowledge had not been inspired by Spinoza's Amor Dei Intellectualis, they wouid hardly have been capable of that untiring devotion which alone enables man to attain his greatest achievements.

-Albert Einstein, 1930

The way I read this statement, Einstein was saying that in order to be truly religious, one must be able to seperate their beliefs from science.
 
The way I read this statement, Einstein was saying that in order to be truly religious, one must be able to seperate their beliefs from science.

Yet here from M. M. O'hare published 1982 (don't know the original source), he seems to say that science is religion:

The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge.
 
If you go by that quote, then yes, Jung was close-minded.

But we don't have to go by that quote. We can go by most of his other writings as well. As with most psychoanalytic thought, the theory determined the evidence, rather than vice versa. Yup, close-minded.
Yes, isn't that pretty much the way Occam's Razor works? We go with "the best" theory which closely matches the evidence? Of course he stated outright that it scientifically can't be proven and, that may very well be the case. That should not necessarily preclude it from being inaccessible, however ... i.e., on a personal level.
 
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Yet here from M. M. O'hare published 1982 (don't know the original source), he seems to say that science is religion:

I've read that before too. Einstein (in my opinion) never came off as an aethiest, but more of anti-structured religion. From what I believe, that statement came from a larger paper and had a quote to the effect of "In order for the preacher to become a teacher, that person must be able to seperate their personal beliefs from their structured beliefs". Einstein, like alot of people here, believed that nobody should have control of his own beliefs or how he rationalized what his "religion" was.
 
Depends. Did you ask him why he believes? Maybe he is convinced by what he perceives as evidence, and so your question to him might be like asking if he could ever lose his belief that the Earth is spherical.

He believes because he saw god in a dream.

BTW: I could lose my belief that the Earth is spherical. If I went into space and looked back and the Earth was shaped like a coin, I would be convinced that it is not spherical.


LLH
 
Some of the posts I read can be taken as quite disturbing (depending on who the reader is). I can't see how someone can have blind faith and not ever question their beliefs. I also can't see how someone can rule out any possibility that something exists that has not been discovered yet.
I'm convinced there is no God. You seem to be treating the existence of God as an empirical issue. For me, it's not about "evidence". There is no physical evidence that could point to God - how would we know that apparent evidence of God wasn't just evidence of a very powerful but non-godlike creature? How would we know that apparent "magic" was not just the exploitation of laws of nature that we hadn't discovered?

The things that make a God a God are not amenable to scientific investigation. How would you scientifically investigate His goodness, his moral perfection? Does the concept even make any sense? And without that why would anyone worship Him or accept his right to judge them?

The idea of God is just ridiculous, an infantile projection of a giant father figure onto the world. You wouldn't prostrate yourself in from of another human being in awe of his magnificence, however wonderful he was. Is it an appropriate response to any being? Could a creature who desired that kind of grovelling response really be worthy of it?

To me the whole God-concept seems stupid and ill thought-out and impossible to reconcile with the world we live in. Perhaps I am wrong about this, but it won't be "evidence" that would put me right. It would be a new argument, or a way of looking at the world or religion, a new perspective from which this would all make sense and I would see my mistake.

But I'm obviously not going to call myself an agnostic on the ground that someone might change my mind. On that logic we could never claim to believe anything. Right now, my mind is such that I totally reject the idea of God. I rule it out.
 
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I'm convinced there is no God. You seem to be treating the existence of God as an empirical issue. For me, it's not about "evidence". There is no physical evidence that could point to God - how would we know that apparent evidence of God wasn't just evidence of a very powerful but non-godlike creature? How would we know that apparent "magic" was not just the exploitation of laws of nature that we hadn't discovered?
Everything is contingent upon the ability to know, in my opinion.
 
In general which group has better overall hygeine? Atheists or Christians? I'd say atheists. Damn hippies always dragging us down.

-Elliot
 
If God did not exist, it would be impossible to know. However, since we do have the capacity to know, of just about everything else, it only stands to reason that it should also include God if, in fact He does exist. If not, then we are forever stuck, trying to explain how a complete Universe could come about bereft of any logical consequences ... our thoughts being a direct result of the logic inherent in the Universe by the way.
 
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If God did not exist, it would be impossible to know. However, since we do have the capacity to know, of just about everything else, it only stands to reason that it should also include God if, in fact He does exist. Or else we would really have to bear down, and try to explain how a complete Universe could come about bereft of any logical consequences?
:eek: :eye-poppi :jaw-dropp

:covereyes


:boxedin:

"X is impossible. However, since Y is possible, it only stands to reason that X is possible. Or how could we explain how we know that Y is possible?"

Is that about it?
 
:eek: :eye-poppi :jaw-dropp

:covereyes


:boxedin:

"X is impossible. However, since Y is possible, it only stands to reason that X is possible. Or how could we explain how we know that Y is possible?"

Is that about it?

I think it's more like...It is impossible *to know* X. However, since it is possible *to know* Y, it stands to reason that it is possible *to know* X.

Is he/she saying that if we can know a ton of stuff, we should also be able to know God, if God exists? Or, that we should be able to derive God's existence logically given the fact that we can know a ton of stuff?

-Elliot
 
I think it's more like...It is impossible *to know* X. However, since it is possible *to know* Y, it stands to reason that it is possible *to know* X.

Is he/she saying that if we can know a ton of stuff, we should also be able to know God, if God exists? Or, that we should be able to derive God's existence logically given the fact that we can know a ton of stuff?

-Elliot
Arguably, your interpretation would be an argument against the existence of god--er, X, I mean, since it should be, but is not, possible to know X, and since it is possible to know Y, the only reason it would be impossible to know X is that X does not exist.

And I don't think that is what Iacchus had in mind. But then, he rarely thinks through his posts anyway.
 
:eek: :eye-poppi :jaw-dropp

:covereyes


:boxedin:

"X is impossible. However, since Y is possible, it only stands to reason that X is possible. Or how could we explain how we know that Y is possible?"

Is that about it?
Actually I meant to say that if it God doesn't exist, it would be impossible to know that He does. In fact I was inclined to change it but, it seemed to read better the way it was. Either way, there are those folks who seem to think it's impossible to know.
 
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If God did not exist, it would be impossible to know. However, since we do have the capacity to know, of just about everything else, it only stands to reason that it should also include God if, in fact He does exist. If not, then we are forever stuck, trying to explain how a complete Universe could come about bereft of any logical consequences ... our thoughts being a direct result of the logic inherent in the Universe by the way.
Is there a big sale at the gobbledygook warehouse today?
 
... the only reason it would be impossible to know X is that X does not exist.
Yes, and why is it possible to explain anything at all, in a Universe which, for all intents and purposes has no origin? In other words we seem to be able to explain everything but that.

And I don't think that is what Iacchus had in mind. But then, he rarely thinks through his posts anyway.
Eh.
 

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