Split Thread Islamic takeover

[arthwollipot]

"Assimilation" isn't a very well-defined term. "Citizenship," on the other hand, is defined in the laws and
constitutions of every country that maintains them. If you live within the boundaries set by a country's
laws and give your allegiance to its constitution, that's "assimilation" with a useful definition.

Culture be damned.

"Assimilation" means "When they live among us they must erase their own culture and language to conform completely to our standards".

 

[jt512]

We went the rounds with this in a thread years ago, so to try and summarise. In the UK for most civil disputes the two parties can agree to arbitration, it is up to the two parties if they want to use an arbitration tribunal or not, you can also pretty much elect to use anyone as an arbitrator. As an example in most contracts the two parties will agree that if there are disputes arising from the contract they will accept a KC being the arbitrator.

And obviously when an immigrant Muslim couple "agree" to arbitration in a Sharia court, the two consent equally. There is no way that in a Muslim couple the man could possibly coerce the woman to his will. And of course the Sharia court will treat the rights of the man and the woman as equal, cause that's exactly how it works in Muslim cultures.

You're right. I can't imagine anything going wrong with at all.

 

[GlennB]

And obviously when an immigrant Muslim couple "agree" to arbitration in a Sharia court, the two consent equally. There is no way that in a Muslim couple the man could possibly coerce the woman to his will. And of course the Sharia court will treat the rights of the man and the woman as equal, cause that's exactly how it works in Muslim cultures.

You're right. I can't imagine anything going wrong with at all.

Sharia courts have no legal standing in the UK

 

[LSSBB]

Sharia courts have no legal standing in the UK

Or in the U.S. Even in Dearborn.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

And obviously when an immigrant Muslim couple "agree" to arbitration in a Sharia court, the two consent equally. There is no way that in a Muslim couple the man could possibly coerce the woman to his will. And of course the Sharia court will treat the rights of the man and the woman as equal, cause that's exactly how it works in Muslim cultures.

You're right. I can't imagine anything going wrong with at all.

That also applies to othodox Jewish couples who have the same right and power dynamic. Should that also be removed ?

Apart from the already mentioned fact that the arbitration does NOT trump legal rights?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

And obviously when an immigrant Muslim couple "agree" to arbitration in a Sharia court, the two consent equally. There is no way that in a Muslim couple the man could possibly coerce the woman to his will. And of course the Sharia court will treat the rights of the man and the woman as equal, cause that's exactly how it works in Muslim cultures.

You're right. I can't imagine anything going wrong with at all.

because all secular marriages and divorces are coercion free?

It's almost as if migrants have to be better than citizens in every way to qualify for integration.

 

[Helen]

You are confused. Helen made the assertion that Citizenship did mean assimilation. And nothing backs that up.

I did? Wow. Sometimes i really surprise myself.

Why are your values of tolerance and diversity not universally shared?

For this discussion, it doesn't matter why. It suffices to note that they aren't.

Ask better questions.

Since I consider tolerance and diversity essential human values, I will just have to consider people, who do not share them, not human. They have simply not been assimilated.

Give better answers.

There are quite a number of people who do not share the values, or culture, a majority of Swedes consider Swedish, even though they, as well as many generations of their ancestors, are born here. What are they?

 

[Darat]

And obviously when an immigrant Muslim couple "agree" to arbitration in a Sharia court, the two consent equally. There is no way that in a Muslim couple the man could possibly coerce the woman to his will. And of course the Sharia court will treat the rights of the man and the woman as equal, cause that's exactly how it works in Muslim cultures.

You're right. I can't imagine anything going wrong with at all.

We have been making a lot of effort to ensure Muslim women know their rights, part of helping folks assimilate...

Plus of course there is probably an annoying fact for you: 90% of applicants to "Sharia courts" in the UK are women looking to have their (religious) marriage dissolved and most are granted.

But let's not let pesky facts get in the way of fear mongering...

 

[Darat]

Sharia courts have no legal standing in the UK

Yes and no, the term is often broadly used to help create division and fear by equating religious only bodies, like the ones I mention above which are mainly used by women to get a religious dissolution of their marriage and arbitration tribunals that are voluntarily used to settle such matters as a breach of contract. The arbitration tribunials' decisions like all legal arbitration decisions can be enforced by civil court orders.

 

[Darat]

That also applies to othodox Jewish couples who have the same right and power dynamic. Should that also be removed ?

Apart from the already mentioned fact that the arbitration does NOT trump legal rights?

It's actually worse for Jewish wives, an orthodox Jewish (religious) divorce can only happen when the husband provides the wife with a get, unlike the Sharia equivalent were the Sharia court can dissolve a marriage over the objections of the husband a Beth Din cannot dissolve a religious marriage. This means a woman can't remarry at all and some Jewish men will refuse to give her a get. For anyone wanting to see the real issues caused by this look up "agunah" women.

 

[Helen]

It's actually worse for Jewish wives, an orthodox Jewish (religious) divorce can only happen when the husband provides the wife with a get, unlike the Sharia equivalent were the Sharia court can dissolve a marriage over the objections of the husband a Beth Din cannot dissolve a religious marriage. This means a woman can't remarry at all and some Jewish men will refuse to give her a get. For anyone wanting to see the real issues caused by this look up "agunah" women.

There is an excellent film about a Jewish woman who is trying to get divorced.

Gett: The Trial of Viviane Amsalem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[jt512]

We have been making a lot of effort to ensure Muslim women know their rights, part of helping folks assimilate...

Plus of course there is probably an annoying fact for you: 90% of applicants to "Sharia courts" in the UK are women looking to have their (religious) marriage dissolved and most are granted.

But let's not let pesky facts get in the way of fear mongering...

I asked Skepticality: "Do Sharia court's procedures treat women failure and is the participation of women free from pressure?"

Response (in full):

Not consistently: there is documented evidence that some British sharia councils treat women unfairly, and women’s participation cannot be assumed to be free from pressure. But the evidence does not establish that every council discriminates or that every woman attends unwillingly. The government-commissioned 2018 review of England and Wales found both good and bad practices, sometimes within the same council.[assets.publishing.service.gov][researchbriefings.files.parliament]

Do their procedures treat women fairly?

The review documented several probles:

• Unequal charges and delays: women were reportedly charged more than men for the same service—sometimes up to four times as much—and faced lengthier divorce processes.
• Financial concessions: women were asked to make concessions to husbands to secure a divorce, including excessive financial demands in some khula agreements.
• Inadequate safeguarding: examples included asking a forced-marriage victim to attend alongside her family and insisting on mediation as a preliminary step.
• Inappropriate questioning: some women faced unnecessary questioning about intimate relationship matters.[researchbriefings.files.parliament]

The government’s response explicitly acknowledged evidence of councils forcing women to make concessions, inadequate safeguarding, and failures to direct applicants towards legal remedies, calling this “not acceptable.”[questions-statements.parliament]

There were also positive findings: some councils reported violence to police, reduced or waived fees, referred financial and child-related matters to civil courts, and treated a civil divorce as sufficient grounds to issue a religious divorce. The review reported that, in practically every case described to it in which a woman sought divorce, one was granted. That outcome, however, does not establish that the process was fair.[researchbriefings.files.parliament]

Is participation genuinely voluntary?

Legally voluntary is not the same as socially unconstrained. The review states that there is no legal duty to comply with religious law and that sharia councils have no jurisdiction as state courts. Nevertheless, it identified concerns about cultural, family and community pressures on women to use council processes rather than civil remedies or accredited family mediation.[assets.publishing.service.gov]

There are two distinct reasons a woman might attend:

• Personal religious conviction: she may genuinely want a divorce recognised by her faith, even after obtaining a civil divorce.
• Constrained choice: she may feel unable to move on or remarry without religious recognition, while facing family or community expectations and a husband who refuses to cooperate. The review describes an asymmetry: husbands generally have access to unilateral talaq, whereas wives ordinarily need another divorce route unless their marriage contract gives them a corresponding right.[assets.publishing.service.gov]

These circumstances can overlap. A woman can sincerely want a religious divorce while also experiencing pressure over where and how she obtains it.

What can we conclude?

The evidence supports the existence of discrimination and pressure, not a reliable estimate of how frequently each occurs. The review acknowledged limited direct testimony about bad practice and difficulty recruiting women with negative experiences. It therefore cannot establish what proportion of proceedings are unfair or how many women participate without meaningful freedom of choice.[assets.publishing.service.gov]

So the high proportion of female applicants is evidence of women’s need for religious divorce—not, by itself, evidence that councils are fair or participation is unpressured.[assets.publishing.service.gov]

So, despite the high proportion of women who bring cases to Sharia courts, many have no real choice and they are subject to unfair treatment.

 

[Darat]

I asked Skepticality: "Do Sharia court's procedures treat women failure and is the participation of women free from pressure?"

Response (in full):


So, despite the high proportion of women who bring cases to Sharia courts, many have no real choice and they are subject to unfair treatment.

Sounds like the issues many women in the UK still often face in regards to divorces doesn't it... At least a muslim woman can get a religious divorce without the husband agreeing to it, unlike Jewish women and many Christian women can't get one even if their husbands have beat them to within an inch of the life several times, so one for the muslims eh?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Making divorces harder for the women is the declared goal of the GOP. Well, for White women.

 

[Mojo]

So, despite the high proportion of women who bring cases to Sharia courts, many have no real choice and they are subject to unfair treatment.

What have the internal quasi-legal processes of Islam, which only apply to those within the religion, got to do with "Islamic takeover"?

 

[Darat]

What have the internal quasi-legal processes of Islam, which only apply to those within the religion, got to do with "Islamic takeover"?

FUD.

 

[jt512]

Sounds like the issues many women in the UK still often face in regards to divorces doesn't it... At least a muslim woman can get a religious divorce without the husband agreeing to it, unlike Jewish women and many Christian women can't get one even if their husbands have beat them to within an inch of the life several times, so one for the muslims eh?

"Sounds like" is doing a lot work there.

 

[AmyStrange]

"Sounds like" is doing a lot work there.

Non-answers are doing a lot more work.

 

[Darat]

"Sounds like" is doing a lot work there.

It sure is:

Legal aid cuts denying vulnerable women access to justice, says thinktank

Women’s Budget Group says changes have disproportionately affected women and cut critical lifeline in England and Wales

www.theguardian.com

When Justice is Denied: The Impact of Legal Aid Cuts on Women in the UK - Debevoise Women's Review

Imagine if, overnight, 17.5% of funding dedicated to legal aid disappeared, leaving considerable areas of law—such as welfare benefits, housing, immigration, private family and employment—with significantly diminished coverage. On April 1, 2013, the UK found itself in that very position when the...

women.debevoise.com

The Divorce Gap – women see their household income cut in half in the year after a divorce

Women’s incomes cut in half following a split – leaving them financially vulnerable (24%) and struggling to meet the cost of essentials (19%) and this can impact retirement.

group.legalandgeneral.com

Incorrect application of divorce law is leading to discrimination against women – research warns

Laws intended to ensure the fair sharing of finances following divorce are not being correctly applied, new research warns. A landmark judgment by the House of Lords (now the Supreme Court) is failing to help

news.exeter.ac.uk

 

[Helen]

And repulicans in several US states are pushing to eliminate no-fault divorce (women are more likely to initiate a divorce).