Split Thread Pronouns

[Emily's Cat]

Which is why I say, and which I have said several times now, that if you just take a stab at it based on what someone looks like, you'll be right 90% of the time.

You instinctively use pronouns based on perceived sex. And you're probably right more like 98% of the time. The disconnect is that you somehow believe that if the other person tells you that they want you to use opposite sex pronouns for them, you're willing to pretend that they're actually the opposite sex.

And on those occasions where you're not, and someone politely corrects you, what do you do then? Do you start using the correct pronoun or do you double down and say "well you look like a he to me!"? If the latter, then you might just be an ass hole.

As I've repeatedly said - and demonstrated over the course of a decade - no, I don't contradict them. But I also don't affirm their belief.

If I am sufficiently convinced that they are actually really an unusually butch female, then I might concede. Most of the time I stick with "you" when talking to them, and their name combined with neutral pronouns when talking about them.

If you demand that I must abandon my principles so that you can feel better about your beliefs, then perhaps you're the ass.

 

[Thermal]

Yeah. She dropped it. Experimented with it, and dropped it. Like most people who experiment with bespoke pronouns.

All you're doing here is making my argument for me. Thanks.

Well... your argument.was that even crossing paths with one was infinitesimally unlikely. That has not been my experience. My take on those who choose options 3,4,5 etc (experimenting or whatever the ◊◊◊◊ they think they are doing) is that they are just screwing around, and we shouldn't be taking them seriously. Are you sure that is your argument?

 

[arthwollipot]

What on earth makes you think it's wrong? Why would it be wrong?

Can you choose to start using masculine pronouns for all purposes for the rest of your life? I know I couldn't choose to start using feminine ones.

Why do you think anyone at all should be able to dictate how I refer to them when they're not around?

She's not dictating, she's asking. And what do you do when someone asks? Actually, I know what you do, because you did it to me, and this thread is the result.

What's your view on detransitioners? Do they just have multiple personalities then?

Again, we're skirting incredibly close to being split off to that other thread, but...

The study by Turban et al. (2021), published in LGBT Health, analyzed data from 17,151 participants of the US Transgender Survey who had undertaken some form of gender affirmation. Of these, 13.1% reported a history of detransition. But the key finding is another: 82.5% of those who detransitioned attributed their choice to at least one external factor [2].

The most frequent motivations [2]:

Pressure from parents: 35.5%
Pressure from the community or social stigma: 32.5%
Difficulty finding employment: 26.8%
Pressure from healthcare professionals: 5.6%
Pressure from religious leaders: 5.3%
Only 2.4% attributed detransition to doubts about their gender identity, and only 10.4% to fluctuations in identity or in the desire to transition [2].

In other words: the majority of documented detransitions do not tell the story of people who “discovered they weren’t trans.” They tell the story of trans people who had to give in to a hostile environment.

How many people detransition? Data, causes, and actual percentages

What is the real detransition rate? Peer-reviewed data on regret after gender-affirming care, causes of detransition, and the difference between desistance, detransition, and regret.

www.transwiki.co

Furthermore, I haven't even touched on the genderfluid, who throw everything out the window and are one of the prime candidates for the use of they/them pronouns.

 

[Brainster]

Well here's the thing, and it's a fundamental misunderstanding of transgender people. They don't choose to become the other gender, they realise they are the other gender and that they've been mistaken or pretending all along. This narrative is so common among trans people that I assume that it's universal. That's why using the correct pronoun is not a choice, any more than their gender is. Hopefully this paragraph is sufficiently on-topic for this thread.

Then why do so many choose to use they/them as their personal pronouns? Surely they would prefer the pronouns of the gender they have suddenly realized they are?

 

[arthwollipot]

If you demand that I must abandon my principles so that you can feel better about your beliefs, then perhaps you're the ass.

I'm not demanding anything. This is one of the primary weapons that you use to bludgeon your opposition - framing everything as a demand.

I'm not demanding anything. I'm asking politely. You are free to choose to be an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ about it if that's what you want.

 

[arthwollipot]

Then why do so many choose to use they/them as their personal pronouns? Surely they would prefer the pronouns of the gender they have suddenly realized they are?

Yes. Most people are of one specified gender, and they use the pronouns appropriate for that gender. But some people are gender nonbinary, or genderfluid. For those people, they/them is appropriate.

Note that nonbinary and genderfluid are actually subsets of transgender. Not all transgender are nonbinary, but all nonbinary people can accurately be described as transgender. Transgender simply means "not of the gender assigned to them at birth".

 

[Emily's Cat]

Can you choose to start using masculine pronouns for all purposes for the rest of your life? I know I couldn't choose to start using feminine ones.

Of course I can. And everyone who hews to your belief would honor my stated desire to suddenly be referred to as if I were male.
You 100% can choose to start using feminine pronouns, and anyone who thinks gender identity is supremely important would refer to you as such.

Seriously - if you were to change your pronouns in your title to "she/her" right now, then everyone who uses gender-identity based pronouns would be expected to conform to your wishes.

She's not dictating, she's asking. And what do you do when someone asks? Actually, I know what you do, because you did it to me, and this thread is the result.

Sometimes people don't get what they want. I rarely get what I want. I've never managed to get you (or a handful of others) to treat me with courtesy and refrain from calling me names like bigot or transphobe. Heck, I can't even get most of the noisy posters here to stop calling me right wing.

Like I said, I won't contradict. But I also won't affirm. I won't join in to the rituals of a religion I don't believe in.

Again, we're skirting incredibly close to being split off to that other thread, but...

Furthermore, I haven't even touched on the genderfluid, who throw everything out the window and are one of the prime candidates for the use of they/them pronouns.

Are you even aware that you didn't answer the question? You claimed that those who make special requests for opposite-sex pronoun concessions have always had the same gender identity, and they just realized it later in life. That it's not something chosen, it's not a choice. But that disagrees with the entire concept of those who mistakenly thought they were transgender for a time, then decided they were incorrect.

Part of your argument for why I should be expected to use gender-identity based pronouns is that transgender people really truly are the sex of their gender identity, and that this identity is innate, fixed, and permanent.

I disagree. Sex is innate, fixed, and permanent. Gender identity is not.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not demanding anything. This is one of the primary weapons that you use to bludgeon your opposition - framing everything as a demand.

I'm not demanding anything. I'm asking politely. You are free to choose to be an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ about it if that's what you want.

"Would you please do X, and if you don't do X then you're a bad person and you should be ashamed of yourself and you're a bigot" is not as "polite" as you seem to think.

You're not showing up with a baseball bat, I'll give you that. But you also aren't just asking politely. You're expecting me to bow to your wishes, under threat of stigma and disapproval. So much so that you've set aside your claim of courtesy in the very next sentence.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes. Most people are of one specified gender, and they use the pronouns appropriate for that gender. But some people are gender nonbinary, or genderfluid. For those people, they/them is appropriate.

Note that nonbinary and genderfluid are actually subsets of transgender. Not all transgender are nonbinary, but all nonbinary people can accurately be described as transgender. Transgender simply means "not of the gender assigned to them at birth".

Gender is a set of social stereotypes based on the roles and behaviors that have historically been associated with each sex. They constrain expression as well as opportunity. Gender identity is, for all intents, how strongly a person feels the need to conform to one set of regressive sex-based stereotypes or the other.

I see no need and no good argument for me to conform to regressive stereotypes, and I don't see any reason why I should support an ideology based on them.

Additionally, gender is not assigned at birth. This is humpty-dumpty linguistic shenanigans. Sex is observed in utero almost all the time in developed nations, and is merely recorded at birth.

 

[acbytesla]

Gender is a set of social stereotypes based on the roles and behaviors that have historically been associated with each sex. They constrain expression as well as opportunity. Gender identity is, for all intents, how strongly a person feels the need to conform to one set of regressive sex-based stereotypes or the other.

I see no need and no good argument for me to conform to regressive stereotypes, and I don't see any reason why I should support an ideology based on them.

Additionally, gender is not assigned at birth. This is humpty-dumpty linguistic shenanigans. Sex is observed in utero almost all the time in developed nations, and is merely recorded at birth.

Not really. Sex is biological. Gender is the cultural and sociological expression of usually biological sex traits.

 

[arthwollipot]

But that disagrees with the entire concept of those who mistakenly thought they were transgender for a time, then decided they were incorrect.

Who, as I pointed out, are in a vanishingly small minority. The vast majority of transgender people do not decide that they were incorrect. And we are off-topic again, talking about transgender people instead of their pronouns.

Part of your argument for why I should be expected to use gender-identity based pronouns is that transgender people really truly are the sex of their gender identity, and that this identity is innate, fixed, and permanent.

I disagree. Sex is innate, fixed, and permanent. Gender identity is not.

I begin to see one of the sources of your misunderstanding.

Pronouns are fixed to what you call "gender identity", and not to any innate, fixed, and permanent "sex" characteristic.

And no, "gender identity" is certainly not always changeable. For those who are genderfluid - a very specific subcategory of transgender - it may vary over time, but for most people - trans or cis - their "gender identity" is innate, fixed, and permanent. That's why I say you can't choose to change your pronouns. You can lie about what they are, but you can't change them.

"Would you please do X, and if you don't do X then you're a bad person and you should be ashamed of yourself and you're a bigot" is not as "polite" as you seem to think.

If you would like to point out where I have said anything like that, go ahead. And no, I don't count the one ill-advised post I made in the Thread That Must Not Be Named, as I was blowing off frustration. I stand by everything I said and will not retract a word, but I shouldn't have said it, and I shouldn't have said it in that thread.

In fact, even in that thread, I'm fairly sure (like, 70% sure) that I talked about people having bigoted views, rather than calling them bigots. If you think I have ever called you or anyone else a derogatory name, I beg you - report the post. I will happily take a yellow card for casting insults if I ever, or have ever, slipped up in this regard.

Now you've drawn me off-topic again.

 

[The Atheist]

I'm asking politely.

This is the most bizarre thread here, I think.

As you say, you made a polite request - one that costs nobody anything other than not being an ass.

And they've spent 12 pages arguing why they should choose the latter path.

 

[arthwollipot]

...one that costs nobody anything other than not being an ass.

Exactly. It doesn't cost anyone anything, not even those Principles that Emily's Cat so vehemently tries to cling to. It's the choice to be nice, or to be mean. So many people so determined to choose to be mean.