Split Thread Pronouns

[Emily's Cat]

You still mentioned infantilisation and linked to feminist articles about infantilising language about women. Which, in all fairness, is fair for the English speaking world. It just misses the mark by a nautical mile when it comes to Japanese. Or anime graphics style for that matter. With VERY few exceptions, like the mutant teacher in a certain series, ages are represented by height. The same woman in a series is literally shown to be a head higher as a 29 year old in the end episode, than she was as a 17 year old schoolgirl. And, as you know first hand, virtually no real human grows in height at that point.

But I suppose you could go resurrect our old anime thread if you want to continue our good old friendly sparring. I'm always up for a jolly good debate.

It's been done to death, and I don't really feel like resurrecting it.

Hah! I caught up on who you are. People changing user names is a challenge for me.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Hah! I caught up on who you are. People changing user names is a challenge for me.

I mean, it's in the signature block, as the site rules require. But yeah, after someone complained about the last n in "HansMustermann" being split onto a different line, it started to bug me too. So I asked it to be changed to this. Plus, now if someone thinks I'm a bastard, I can tell them the clue was already in the name

 

[Emily's Cat]

I mean, it's in the signature block, as the site rules require. But yeah, after someone complained about the last n in "HansMustermann" being split onto a different line, it started to bug me too. So I asked it to be changed to this. Plus, now if someone thinks I'm a bastard, I can tell them the clue was already in the name

Yep... and clearly I don't bother reading people's sig lines. I can barely keep track of user names, and when people change avatars I want to cry. Heck, I think there are at least a couple of posters that I regularly mix up because their avatars are somewhat similar in my brain!

Congratulations, you don't matter to me! Let's be happy with our not mattering to each other

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Yep... and clearly I don't bother reading people's sig lines. I can barely keep track of user names, and when people change avatars I want to cry. Heck, I think there are at least a couple of posters that I regularly mix up because their avatars are somewhat similar in my brain!

Well, I hope mine is unique enough

Congratulations, you don't matter to me! Let's be happy with our not mattering to each other

You don't even have to ask

 

[arthwollipot]

Of course they can be chosen. They aren't handed down from God.

So tell me - when did you choose your pronoun and why did you choose the one that you chose?

Right or wrong based on what? Sex? Not according to you. Gender? Maybe, except you said that's not distinct from sex.

Let's assume for the moment that pronouns are determined by sex. And that by "sex" we mean biological characteristics - basically, what genitals someone has. Because that's all "sex" means in this context. How do you know what genitals someone has? Are you asking them? Sneaking a peek? Demanding that they show them to you so you can know what pronouns to use? Okay, so let's de-creepify this scenario and say that instead of genitals we're concerned with chromosomes. How do you know that a particular person has XY chromosomes? You don't. You can't.

So pronouns can't possibly be determined by sex, because you fundamentally cannot know what sex someone is without either them telling you or you being a complete creep.

If you go by vague general appearance and take a stab based on that, as I said, you'll be right 90% of the time. If you do this, and the person you are referring to happens to be passing transgender, then you've used correct pronoun anyway. Win-win.

Irrelevant. Doesn't even have to be completely bespoke. Even "they/them" works for what I was trying to say, and it's actually what I almost wrote there.

No, because you already use they/them in your normal speech. Everybody does. That's why it's used instead of new invented words.

What in Lucifer's good name is my cue that some guy I see at the smoking place twice a week, and once in a meeting, and I don't care enough about to even remember the name of, is neither a he nor a she?

I've told you five times now that nobody expects you to do that.

Besides, I have actually heard (well, read) more than one use shi/hir before in a chat room. That's why I've said I've only heard it used by trans furries before. Because I actually have. And asked what it meant. And it was in 2000 or 2001 or so, long before the current pronouns carnival. So, not quite that infinitesimal.

Once, in your lifetime, twenty five years ago, in a very niche community.

Like I said, infinitesimal.

 

[dirtywick]

Does it offend you that I only use sex-neutral pronouns?

We say congressperson (or congresscritter, depending on your views of congress). We say police officer, firefighter, sales associate, flight attendant. We've put a lot of effort into removing sex from a ton of our language. Would you also support removing sex from pronouns?

That's what singular they accomplishes... even though it comes with a lot of additional work to ensure clarity.

lol of course it doesn't offend me

you think that because i don't respect it, i find it offensive. but, that couldn't be further from the truth. sad, boring, transparent, played out, those are all better descriptions for how i feel about what you're doing.

 

[arthwollipot]

Wait, wait, so you reserve the right to decide if someone's pronouns are ridiculous, but deny the same judgment to others? Based on what? Whether it's been used before? So if some person comes around with some pronouns I've never heard of before, can they also decide they're just being ridiculous? Everyone has a first time hearing it. Should I have also thought shi's just taking the piss the first time I encountered shi/hir?

Like I said (you're not reading again) your example was chosen specifically to be a stupid example for the purposes of argument, and not as a serious suggestion. It's not a pronoun or an identification, it's a ridicule. It's chosen specifically to make your opponent look dumb. So it's not me who decided it's ridiculous, it's you. Because you said to yourself "what's the most ridiculous thing I can say is a pronoun in order to make my point?".

And oh look, you just remembered an actual bespoke pronoun and used it correctly. Well done.

 

[Ziggurat]

So tell me - when did you choose your pronoun and why did you choose the one that you chose?

I said they can be chosen. I didn't say they had to be. Do you actually think they cannot be? Because I can prove otherwise, by making a choice.

Let's assume for the moment that pronouns are determined by sex. And that by "sex" we mean biological characteristics - basically, what genitals someone has. Because that's all "sex" means in this context. How do you know what genitals someone has?

On this forum, I only know what people tell me.

In real life, I usually use secondary sexual characteristics which correlate very well with biological sex. It's not perfect, but it doesn't need to be.

If you go by vague general appearance and take a stab based on that, as I said, you'll be right 90% of the time. If you do this, and the person you are referring to happens to be passing transgender, then you've used correct pronoun anyway. Win-win.

And if they're non-passing trans? Then that exposes rather clearly that gender and sex are different, despite your claim that you can't really separate them.

 

[arthwollipot]

The second person I met who preferred 'counterintuitive' pronouns was a 'xe', a friend of one of my kids. I was told she dropped it in college.

But the principle still applies- if we are obligated to take them seriously, does that extend to the silly ◊◊◊◊ like made up identifications?

Like, I have no issues with transwomen wanting to be called 'she'. But when you get into all this Options 3,4,5... you're losing me. These options aren't real.

Yeah. She dropped it. Experimented with it, and dropped it. Like most people who experiment with bespoke pronouns.

All you're doing here is making my argument for me. Thanks.

The number of people on this site who matter to me as even "good acquaintances" can be counted on one hand.

You don't matter to me. And I don't expect that I matter to you. I expect that at the very most, you find me to be an intersting interlocutor.

You flatter yourself. And for the record, I try to use correct pronouns even for people who don't matter to me. Because I'm not an ass hole.

And I'm not going to respond to any claims about religion as though it is remotely analogous. All I'll say is that it ain't.

I've been misgendered and misnamed IRL at work in a group email. Think something like Hana instead of Hans. (Not the exact name, for privacy reasons.) I just had a jolly good laugh and walked to the guy's desk and asked, "Do I actually look like a woman to you?" And that was the end of it. Like, flip me if I can be bothered to walk a few more yards to HR, so the lady there can have a laugh too.

Did the person who misgendered you say "oops, sorry, I won't do that again" or did they double down?

arth, what's a "she"? Why is it anathema to you to be represented in the minds of others as a "she"? Is a "she" inferior in some way to the "he" you identify as? Do you find the concept of "she" disgusting in some way? Is it dishonorable to you, to acquiesce to being seen as a "she" by others? What's the problem? More importantly: On what agreed-upon fundamental principles of reality does this problem rest? What is it about the real world that makes thinking of you as a "she" so wrong?

A "she" is what she says it is. That's what. If someone says "I am a woman - I am female - I am a she" then that's reality. Who are you to deny that reality? I am a man - I am male - I am a he. Who are you to deny that reality?

I work with a large number of off-shored technicians who are substantially Indian and African. Most of them I never see a face to go with a name. I just don't try to guess what sex they are anymore, and I routinely use neutral pronouns in communications. Nobody has yet complained.

That is a great way to navigate the situation. Genuinely. And it's the approach I take to - right up until I receive some actual information, after which I go with the reality that I know. You don't need to use gender-neutral pronouns for someone whose gender you know.

 

[arthwollipot]

I said they can be chosen. I didn't say they had to be. Do you actually think they cannot be? Because I can prove otherwise, by making a choice.

Can you? Can you choose right now that your pronouns are she/her? I don't think you can.

On this forum, I only know what people tell me.

Exactly. So how do you know what pronouns to use? People tell you.

In real life, I usually use secondary sexual characteristics which correlate very well with biological sex. It's not perfect, but it doesn't need to be.

Exactly.

And if they're non-passing trans? Then that exposes rather clearly that gender and sex are different, despite your claim that you can't really separate them.

If you're unsure or if it's ambigous, you can ask politely. In my experience, trans people will be more than happy to tell you, as long as you don't use it as a launching off point for an argument. Or, if it's just an acquaintance of the kind SpuriusMaximus is so proud to not give a ◊◊◊◊ about, you can ignore them and go on with your day.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well, I hope mine is unique enough
You don't even have to ask

 

[Ziggurat]

Can you? Can you choose right now that your pronouns are she/her? I don't think you can.

Sure I can. The forum rules explicitly allow for it. Did you not know? You chose which pronouns to use here. Your choice may correspond to your sex and/or gender identity, but it didn't need to. You could have written "She/Her" instead of "He/Him". You chose not to.

Exactly. So how do you know what pronouns to use? People tell you.

No. I observe their apparent sex, and use the pronoun corresponding to that sex. Sometimes, the apparent sex is not the actual sex, but that isn't generally a problem, because the listener can interpret my use of pronouns based on apparent sex as well.

 

[Brainster]

Can you? Can you choose right now that your pronouns are she/her? I don't think you can.

A bunch of trans-indentifying men would like a word with you.

 

[arthwollipot]

Sure I can. The forum rules explicitly allow for it. Did you not know? You chose which pronouns to use here. Your choice may correspond to your sex and/or gender identity, but it didn't need to. You could have written "She/Her" instead of "He/Him". You chose not to.

Okay, go on then. I dare you. Start using she/her pronouns in your real life. All your interpersonal relationships, put it on all the forms that you sign, choose to use the feminine pronouns, starting now, for the rest of your life.

You can't do it. Not only won't you do it, you can't. You can't make that choice, because it would be wrong.

No. I observe their apparent sex, and use the pronoun corresponding to that sex. Sometimes, the apparent sex is not the actual sex, but that isn't generally a problem, because the listener can interpret my use of pronouns based on apparent sex as well.

Exactly what I said in #205 above. The question is what do you do when someone says "my pronouns are she/her, can you use those please?"

A bunch of trans-indentifying men would like a word with you.

Well here's the thing, and it's a fundamental misunderstanding of transgender people. They don't choose to become the other gender, they realise they are the other gender and that they've been mistaken or pretending all along. This narrative is so common among trans people that I assume that it's universal. That's why using the correct pronoun is not a choice, any more than their gender is. Hopefully this paragraph is sufficiently on-topic for this thread.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Let's assume for the moment that pronouns are determined by sex. And that by "sex" we mean biological characteristics - basically, what genitals someone has. Because that's all "sex" means in this context. How do you know what genitals someone has? Are you asking them? Sneaking a peek? Demanding that they show them to you so you can know what pronouns to use? Okay, so let's de-creepify this scenario and say that instead of genitals we're concerned with chromosomes. How do you know that a particular person has XY chromosomes? You don't. You can't.

Are you aware that humans are a sexually dimorphic species? Males and females are built differently, and we can tell the difference between a male and a female human on faces alone, with about 95% accuracy - better than most algorithms out there.

How did you determine whether or not you should strike up a conversation with your spouse way back when? Was it a surprise to you to find they were female the first time you made it past second base?

When you walk down the sidewalk, do you find yourself constantly baffled by which bodies are female and which are male, and you find yourself inadvertently oggling the backsides of males with some regularity?

I'm betting not. Because you can almost always tell who is male and who is female. Pretending otherwise is absurd, and it doesn't serve to strengthen your position one bit. It serves only to make you look like you're trying to convince me that the emperor's new outfit is truly amazing.

So pronouns can't possibly be determined by sex, because you fundamentally cannot know what sex someone is without either them telling you or you being a complete creep.

Are you attempting to argue that for a few thousand years, the pronouns "he" and "she", as well as the attendant sex classifications of male and female... were just wild random guesses? That nobody could tell ever, and it was just a giant craps table to see if you managed to guess right?

If you go by vague general appearance and take a stab based on that, as I said, you'll be right 90% of the time. If you do this, and the person you are referring to happens to be passing transgender, then you've used correct pronoun anyway. Win-win.

If the person happens to be passing, you will have used sex-based pronouns incorrectly, but they'll be very happy about it.

 

[arthwollipot]

I'm betting not. Because you can almost always tell who is male and who is female. Pretending otherwise is absurd, and it doesn't serve to strengthen your position one bit. It serves only to make you look like you're trying to convince me that the emperor's new outfit is truly amazing.

Which is why I say, and which I have said several times now, that if you just take a stab at it based on what someone looks like, you'll be right 90% of the time.

And on those occasions where you're not, and someone politely corrects you, what do you do then? Do you start using the correct pronoun or do you double down and say "well you look like a he to me!"? If the latter, then you might just be an ass hole.

 

[Emily's Cat]

A "she" is what she says it is. That's what. If someone says "I am a woman - I am female - I am a she" then that's reality.

This is magic words. At what point did skeptics start believing in magic words?

Humans can't change sex. They definitely can't change sex merely by saying magic words. Female has a real meaning, so does male. These are evolutionary classifications, and anisogamy has been in place for about a billion years. That's Billion, with a B. It's how all mammals, all birds, and the overwhelming majority of vertebrates reproduce.

Who are you to deny that reality? I am a man - I am male - I am a he. Who are you to deny that reality?

Do you think that female human beings in Afghanistan are just stupid idiots who haven't had the sense to say your magic words and be transformed into males so they can have human rights?

 

[arthwollipot]

Humans can't change sex.

Well here's the thing, and it's a fundamental misunderstanding of transgender people. They don't choose to become the other gender, they realise they are the other gender and that they've been mistaken or pretending all along. This narrative is so common among trans people that I assume that it's universal. That's why using the correct pronoun is not a choice, any more than their gender is. Hopefully this paragraph is sufficiently on-topic for this thread.

 

[arthwollipot]

Transgender people haven't changed sex. They have realised that their gender is different from the one assigned to them at birth, and we are skirting very, very close to being trotted off to that other thread now.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Okay, go on then. I dare you. Start using she/her pronouns in your real life. All your interpersonal relationships, put it on all the forms that you sign, choose to use the feminine pronouns, starting now, for the rest of your life.

You can't do it. Not only won't you do it, you can't. You can't make that choice, because it would be wrong.

What on earth makes you think it's wrong? Why would it be wrong?

Exactly what I said in #205 above. The question is what do you do when someone says "my pronouns are she/her, can you use those please?"

Why do you think anyone at all should be able to dictate how I refer to them when they're not around?

Well here's the thing, and it's a fundamental misunderstanding of transgender people. They don't choose to become the other gender, they realise they are the other gender and that they've been mistaken or pretending all along. This narrative is so common among trans people that I assume that it's universal. That's why using the correct pronoun is not a choice, any more than their gender is. Hopefully this paragraph is sufficiently on-topic for this thread.

What's your view on detransitioners? Do they just have multiple personalities then?

And for those (almost universally male) people who discover their transgender identities in prison at middle age... you genuinely think they were just "pretending" to be males when they were committing crimes, and then they realized they were mistaken and were actually genuinely "women" after having been convicted of crimes?

I understand that this is what you believe. It is not what I believe, and there is no factual information that supports your belief.

I don't accept that transubstantiation of sex is a real thing.