Split Thread Pronouns

[arthwollipot]

I'm perfectly aware how to construct such a sentence, but in what circumstances would you be saying this?

All sorts of circumstances. Sometimes even in your presence.

Alice, Bob and Carol are having a drink. Alice fancies Carol but is shy and hasn't spoken to her. Bob says "Alice is having a party next week, and she'd really like you to come." Alice blushes.

That's why I said before that asking me to remember their made up pronouns is just unreasonable, when they're not important for me to remember their names. I'll humour someone by calling him a "her" or viceversa if they look or dress that way, but otherwise, bugger me sideways if I'm gonna even bother remembering who's a "they/them" or "fae/faer" or "shi/hir" or what. Put on a furry mask if you want me to remember you're a "shi/hir", since I've only seen it used by trans furries before the current pronoun madness. Or put on some pointy ears if you're a fae, as a visual cue.

You say this as though remembering someone's pronoun is a burden. It isn't. I can assure you, it isn't. If you can remember someone's birthday, you can remember their pronoun. You don't need to remember everyone's birthday, but you remember the ones that matter to you. And in 90% of cases, if you just make a guess based on obvious physical characteristics, you'll be right. The important thing is when someone politely corrects you, politely acknowledge the correction and move on.

And as I have said previously, several times, a vanishingly small number of people use bespoke pronouns. They've just never caught on.

People can ask me to do anything. The things that I actually do are my choices. Their choice doesn't trump mine.

I ask you to stop at a red light. Do you do it? I ask you to pick up your trash. I ask you to stop hitting on me at the bar. Do you do it? I ask you to use he/him when referring to me. Do you do it?

All of which is fine. She wishes her entitlement to be rude to override others requesting her to be polite. But she doesn't get to play victim over it. It's theatrics.

Yes. It's just a way to showingly make a point. We all know what that point is but she flaunts it anyway.

The issue is not telling him, "no, you're a he." The vast majority wouldn't even bother. But you don't use those pronouns when talking TO someone, you just say "you." The issue is whether I can be bothered to remember his preferred pronouns a week later when talking to someone else, without him even being present. And for most people, I can't even be bothered to remember their NAMES. They're just that unimportant to me. Demanding that I remember their made up pronouns is just ridiculous. I have 99 problems on my mind, and their made up pronouns are not one of them. Even whether I buy that farm upgrade in a game in the evening ranks higher.

But I'll bet there are people in your life whose names you do remember. Probably their birthdays and maybe even their taste in beer. Nobody's asking you to be perfect all the time with every casual encounter.

You're making a big assumption if you think that I give a flip about remembering some stranger's name before or after marriage.

Again, we're not talking about strangers. Would you remember your sister's name after marriage? I think you would.

Right but this is a forum where members are referred to in the third person, because sometimes they will be involved in the exchange in real time, and sometimes not, but they will absolutely be directly exposed to the pronouns used to describe them.

For example, there are now several examples in this thread where we have referred to Emily's Cat by the correct pronoun - she/her. Which puts the lie to the idea that it never happens.

What counts are rude, what counts as polite, and why? That's not universal. I consider it rude to try to make people use your preferred pronouns. The purpose of pronouns is for the convenience of the speaker and the listener, not the subject.

I completely disagree, and for this reason:

There are people for whom pronouns aren't important. They just don't care how others refer to them. Whatever. They don't care, I don't care. We're not talking about them. Do what you like.

But there are people for whom pronouns are very important. There are people for whom the correct pronouns are intimately tied to their gender identity. And yes, I'm talking about trans and nonbinary people. For them, using the wrong pronoun is transphobic and bigoted. It's part of the stigmatisation of transgender people and it contributes to mental health harm. I know people who are in this boat. They are my friends and I love them.

That's why I think pronouns are important.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

You say this as though remembering someone's pronoun is a burden.

I assure you that for most people even remembering their name or face is a burden. Just because I don't give a flip about them.

It isn't. I can assure you, it isn't. If you can remember someone's birthday, you can remember their pronoun.

What makes you think I remember even my parents' birthdays, much less those who just happen to work in the same building? Hell, I only remember it's MINE when I start getting congratulations.

You don't need to remember everyone's birthday, but you remember the ones that matter to you.

And that's the important part. 99%+ of the company employees literally matter less to me than the lint between my toes. Forcing me to remember their made up pronouns is literally forcing me to care more. Which I resent. No, he's just some other random guy from a different floor or even building. I literally couldn't give more of a f about him than the ancient god of impotence. Forcing me to care more about some rando is stupid.

And in 90% of cases, if you just make a guess based on obvious physical characteristics, you'll be right.

Riiight. So I see someone with a male shoulder to hip ratio, a square jaw, and I'm supposed to guess he identifies as a "shi/hir"?

The important thing is when someone politely corrects you, politely acknowledge the correction and move on.

Which I already said I do. Then in three days (the duration for a human brain middle-term memory cache) it flies right out. I don't give enough of an f about him to commit that to long term memory.

 

[arthwollipot]

Riiight. So I see someone with a male shoulder to hip ratio, a square jaw, and I'm supposed to guess he identifies as a "shi/hir"?

I already said that you don't. You're so motivated to disagree with me that you're not reading what I'm saying.

 

[Thermal]

Alice, Bob and Carol are having a drink. Alice fancies Carol but is shy and hasn't spoken to her. Bob says "Alice is having a party next week, and she'd really like you to come." Alice blushes.

I hope I'm not being too juvenile here in laughing hysterically at this.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I already said that you don't. You're so motivated to disagree with me that you're not reading what I'm saying.

No, I did read everything. Carefully. You just seem to be artificially narrowing the problem down to a few you care about, and who broadcast the cues, from the real problem that it's being forced onto everyone, lest you be dragged to HR or reported to moderators in this case. If a family member decided he/she wanted a funny pronoun, I'd probably remember. Eventually. If some rando online or IRL wanted it? Ha ha ha... no.

 

[arthwollipot]

No, I did read everything. Carefully. You just seem to be artificially narrowing the problem down to a few you care about, from the real problem that it's being forced onto everyone, lest you be dragged to HR or reported to moderators in this case. If a family member decided he/she wanted a funny pronoun, I'd probably remember. Eventually. If some rando online or IRL wanted it? Ha ha ha... no.

That's all I'm saying. Nobody cares whether you care about randos or not. We care that you care about the people you give a damn about. However many people that is in your life.

ETA: In my case, because I'm just some rando, I have this handy little reminder right there below my username.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

That's all I'm saying. Nobody cares whether you care about randos or not. We care that you care about the people you give a damn about. However many people that is in your life.

I think I made that clear before you even entered this sub-thread.

ETA: In my case, because I'm just some rando, I have this handy little reminder right there below my username.

Yes you are just a rando to me. As I fully expect myself to be for you. If either of us suddenly decided to be called, dunno, "fae/faer" I'd fully expect the other to not care enough for it to go into permanent memory.

And, I mean, a couple of years ago on this very forum we had someone complaining that a hospitalised friend of his got called a Mr instead of his preferred gender by a doctor. OMG what an insult. Like, dude, that doctor sees literally HUNDREDS of patients every day and is already under a lot of stress to get that professional thing right. He probably doesn't even remember any given patient's NAME, without reading it off a clipboard. What makes anyone think that they're special enough that hospital stuff remember their made up pronouns?

 

[Ziggurat]

There are people for whom pronouns aren't important.

Why should what someone else finds important dictate what I find important? Generally, it doesn't. What makes pronouns special?

There are people for whom the correct pronouns are intimately tied to their gender identity.

"Gender identity" is functionally meaningless.

For them, using the wrong pronoun is transphobic and bigoted.

Again, why should their preferences automatically outweigh my preferences?

It's part of the stigmatisation of transgender people and it contributes to mental health harm.

That source says nothing about pronouns specifically. And as far as I can tell, the main takeaway is that the more time transgender people spend online, the worse their mental health. Which isn't a surprising result, given the state of social media these days. The obvious solution seems to be to touch grass more often.

I know people who are in this boat. They are my friends and I love them.

Is that why their preferences matter more than mine? Because you know and love them, but you don't know and love me? Not the worst of reasons, but it's your reason, not mine.

 

[TragicMonkey]

ETA: In my case, because I'm just some rando, I have this handy little reminder right there below my username.

Oh, gosh, "he" and "him"? That's far too exotic to expect people to remember them!

Seriously, y'all fell victim to a troll. Arth wasn't demanding to be called anything odd, he just wanted to be called "he". Because he's a dude.

 

[Thermal]

In fairness, I think EC is perfectly sincere. She takes great pride in womanhood (I think) and sincerely feels like it's belittled if it can be appropriated casually. So maybe not a troll so much as a try-hard to make a point.

 

[TragicMonkey]

In fairness, I think EC is perfectly sincere. She takes great pride in womanhood (I think) and sincerely feels like it's belittled if it can be appropriated casually. So maybe not a troll so much as a try-hard to make a point.

Wouldn't that be uncivil, personalizing an argument, and bringing an argument from one thread into unrelated threads?

 

[Thermal]

Wouldn't that be uncivil, personalizing an argument, and bringing an argument from one thread into unrelated threads?

Agreed, but I have a spectrum running between misplaced passion and dickhead trolling. I think she's pretty far to the left on that one.

 

[Ziggurat]

Wouldn't that be uncivil, personalizing an argument, and bringing an argument from one thread into unrelated threads?

There's nothing personal about it. She does that for everyone.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Agreed, but I have a spectrum running between misplaced passion and dickhead trolling. I think she's pretty far to the left on that one.

I'm less interested in the interior souls than in behavior. If rules are being broken there should be consequences, regardless of any sincerity in the motivation behind the behaviors.

 

[TragicMonkey]

There's nothing personal about it. She does that for everyone.

That doesn't actually make it better.

 

[Ziggurat]

That doesn't actually make it better.

Doesn't it? Her decision to address everyone by gender-neutral pronouns has nothing to do with Arth, it's not directed at Arth, and it has nothing to do with any specific thread. It's a response to a forum-wide mod policy.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Doesn't it? Her decision to address everyone by gender-neutral pronouns has nothing to do with Arth, it's not directed at Arth, and it has nothing to do with any specific thread. It's a response to a forum-wide mod policy.

It's directed at anyone it's posted about. If it's against the rules then it should be stopped. If the poster will not stop, then they should face the consequences of that.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's directed at anyone it's posted about. If it's against the rules then it should be stopped.

I don't think it is against the rules. She's been doing this for a while, and hasn't been actioned for it yet.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I ask you to stop at a red light. Do you do it? I ask you to pick up your trash. I ask you to stop hitting on me at the bar. Do you do it? I ask you to use he/him when referring to me. Do you do it?

I stop when those in authority say I should stop. Never had an accident charged to me.

If I hit on you at a bar I hope someone shoots me.

 

[arthwollipot]

If either of us suddenly decided to be called, dunno, "fae/faer" I'd fully expect the other to not care enough for it to go into permanent memory.

Again, for the hundredth time, the number of people who use bespoke pronouns is vanishingly small. The probability that you will ever encounter one in your lifetime is infinitesimal.