Split Thread Trickle-down economics

[psionl0]

You got it backwards.

Wealth inequality always increases with time until an intervention - either a redistribution through a debt amnesty (biblically every 7 years or for the coronation of a new ruler - or - a conflict that destroys most of the wealth.
Reason being that, as everyone knows, it's easier to make a million when you already have one.

Yes, there can be resets that deplete the wealth of the wealthy but that doesn't account for the rise of the middle class in the 20th century.

I have heard it claimed that all of the world's wealth was equally distributed among the global population then within 10 years, the same people would be rich again and the same people would be poor again.

 

[Trausti]

Yes, there can be resets that deplete the wealth of the wealthy but that doesn't account for the rise of the middle class in the 20th century.

I have heard it claimed that all of the world's wealth was equally distributed among the global population then within 10 years, the same people would be rich again and the same people would be poor again.

See Lottery winners.

 

[Trausti]

Yes, there can be resets that deplete the wealth of the wealthy

A favorite occurrence of this is when the Chinese Communists dispossessed the landowner/nobility to zero. The descendants of these dispossessed pre-revolutionary elites have since regained their social advantage. The heredity of human capital persists.

 

[steenkh]

No, he can't. Musk needs those shares in order to maintain control of his companies. That's far more important to him than the monetary value.

I argued that he could liquefy substantial amounts of his assets and still have enough left to maintain his wealth. Nothing you have written says otherwise. His offer of a million dollars in a lottery for voters to vote for his candidate alone was an example of this. I don't think he is losing control of his companies by the stream of money he spends to make the world a worse place.

77 million people in America support extreme right wing politics. In 2024 76 million Russians (88% of voters) supported Putin.

That is democracy. Musk is just one voter, but with a similar influence.

Throughout the world, most business people support right-wing parties because they are more 'business friendly'. Most business people also don't like 'red tape', including onerous environmental regulations. This applies to everyone from sole business owners up, and managers too.

Of course businesses want to pollute away, and gain an advantage over companies that do not spend money to pollute. They also want to form conglomerates to shut out competition: all 'red tape'. That every business owner wants to remove red tape is not putting Musk in a better light.

You say Musk 'undermines environmental policies everywhere', but where's your evidence? Seriously, show us what environmental policies he has 'undermined', so we can balance it against how his businesses are supporting them.

Musk unleashed his DOGE minions among other things to kill off enforcement of environmental protection, and he supports extreme right wing policies everywhere in the world. Can you mention a an extreme right wing party that supports environmental policies?

The influence can be a problem yes, but so is the influence of 77 million voters.

We are taking about a single man with an influence not much less than 77 million voters.

Trump hates EVs and wind turbines, and wants to bring back coal. Elon thought he could change his mind for the better, and for a moment he did. Only problem is Trump blew up the deficit with his 'Big Beautiful Bill', which Musk understandably got upset about.

That Musk thought he could work with an idiot president to just support his business, make the poor poorer, support racism, and reduce 'red tape' without risking some other catastrophe was naive.

If the people had voted in competent lawmakers with integrity this wouldn't have happened.

Did Musk at any time support competent lawmakers with integrity?

 

[dirtywick]

musk doesn't need to sell stock to access cash, he has billions of dollars of personal debt pledged against his tesla stock

Third of Musk’s Tesla shares tied up in margin loans | IFR

People & Markets Lending terms remain conservative despite large number of shares pledged

www.ifre.com

 

[dirtywick]

do illegal gas turbines count as undermining the environment?

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/pollution-musks-unpermitted-xai-power-project-hits-hardest-black-communities-2026-07-14/

here's a more comprehensive list of the environmental regulations dodged by his companies

Elon Musk Has Criticized Environmental Regulations. Here’s How His Companies Have Been Accused of Sidestepping Them.

Musk considers environmental regulation a barrier to innovation. As he eyes a new project in Houston, here’s what to know about some of his companies’ past projects that have faced scrutiny from regulators and environmental advocates.

www.propublica.org

 

[The Great Zaganza]

It's not dodged - it's counting on States being unwilling to sue.
It's Guilty until proven Rich in the US

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

I think it was with the creation of the middle class, so around the industrial revolution starting in the UK that income disparity was reduced for the first time. Previously to that you had the very wealthy and everyone else, then we had a period of the very wealthy and some comfortably wealthy people and everyone else.

The middle class is much older than the industrial revolution. In fact, I would say that having a sizeable middle class with disposable funds to invest but no means to invest it in traditional assets was a neccessary prerequisite.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Hindi, Islamic or Imperial Chinese Merchant Class.

 

[Solitaire]

musk doesn't need to sell stock to access cash, he has billions of dollars of personal debt pledged against his tesla stock

Third of Musk’s Tesla shares tied up in margin loans | IFR

People & Markets Lending terms remain conservative despite large number of shares pledged

www.ifre.com

At 350 dollars per share that works out to 82.5 billion over 12.5 billion, a ratio of 6.6 to 1. Yikes!

He sold 16.5 billion dollars of Tesla shares to make the purchase, and the market cap went from 1250 billion to 550 billion in about six months so that's a ratio of 42 to 1. If there's a market downturn then they could get a real hair cut.

 

[Solitaire]

Oh, would you look at that. It's a registered security under the Security And Exchange Commission as Project X.

It's exactly a security backed loan with a three year term. And, it's 3% per year above SOFR which puts it at 3.5% per year. So it's been paid off already.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

do illegal gas turbines count as undermining the environment?

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/pollution-musks-unpermitted-xai-power-project-hits-hardest-black-communities-2026-07-14/

No. The claim was that Musk 'undermines environmental policies everywhere', not 'the environment'. Your article says:-

Mississippi regulators in March issued a permit for permanent turbines for Colossus 2, allowing construction of 41 gas-fired turbines... The communications... included emails between Trinity Consultants, representing xAI and subsidiary MZX Tech, and the Mississippi Department of Environmental Quality (MDEQ)... “MDEQ has determined that portable/temporary turbines do not require an air permit,” the agency said in a statement to Reuters.

here's a more comprehensive list of the environmental regulations dodged by his companies

Elon Musk Has Criticized Environmental Regulations. Here’s How His Companies Have Been Accused of Sidestepping Them.

Musk considers environmental regulation a barrier to innovation. As he eyes a new project in Houston, here’s what to know about some of his companies’ past projects that have faced scrutiny from regulators and environmental advocates.

www.propublica.org

Not much there. Any large industrial site is bound to have some problems. Your 'more comprehensive list' cites a few minor issues with The Boring Company, xAI gas turbines - which we already know about, SpaceX, and Tesla.

In 2022 the FAA gave SpaceX a 'Mitigated Finding of No Significant Impact', while requiring it to 'include protections for water resources, limits to noise levels, and biohazard materials control' and to 'contribute to local education and preservation efforts'. AFAIK SpaceX is complying with all required environmental regulations.

Regarding Tesla we see some problems at its Fremont factory between 2019 and 2024. Again these were minor issues that were fixed when brought to their attention by regulators.

But do we see a pattern here? Yes, we do - of Musk's companies being singled out for criticism while others are ignored. In 2025 the EPA alone issued 2,127 violations, with $652 million in penalties and $6.43 billion in compliance commitments. As usual the news media cherry-picks information to push a narrative. Then you read it and get a wrong impression - not that you mind of course because it aligns with your own preconceptions.

 

[dirtywick]

oh sorry i thought you cared about that kind of stuff

 

[dirtywick]

Oh, would you look at that. It's a registered security under the Security And Exchange Commission as Project X.

It's exactly a security backed loan with a three year term. And, it's 3% per year above SOFR which puts it at 3.5% per year. So it's been paid off already.

https://www.reuters.com/business/elon-musks-xai-repay-3-billion-debt-early-bloomberg-news-reports-2026-03-02/

yeah he sold the companies to himself and paid it back

 

[steenkh]

No. The claim was that Musk 'undermines environmental policies everywhere', not 'the environment'.

In your attempt to show that others are as bad as Musk you only make the problem worse.