• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Merged Is Scientism Really Justified?

Wake me up when epistemology has sorted out anything of any use, then, rather than going round in circles about what anything means.
Don't mistake the tight little solipsistic circles that our OP is spinning in as an accurate representation of the philosophy of science. It's just coffeehouse navel-gazing served on a bed of AI slop. Be that as it may, all this rhetorical pearl-clutching serves philosophers a lot more than it serves scientists.

It seems our OP is still trying to pretend that anyone here believes in his "strong scientism" boogey-man.

I didn't say logic and maths were invalid, did I?
Nor have I.

Propositional logic is valid in that it describes what can be reliably deduced or reasonably inferred. As you pointed out, it is merely an aid to thinking. Thinking would still occur if we did not codify patterns of good thinking. The codification does not exist outside of human thought. We can apply those patterns to some real-world set of facts and evaluate the outcomes. We can, say, recognize the pattern of reasoning as a Barbara syllogism, and therefore of validating form, and further that the conclusion is verified by observation:

All science fiction fans are nerds.​
Star Trek fans are science fiction fans.​
Therefore, Star Trek fans are nerds.​

The empirical proof of this is let as an exercise to the reader. But the reason why we know this pattern of thinking leads to reliable conclusions is not because we have exhaustively or statistically tested all possible examples. We know it works because we have found a way to express what it means to be a member of a category. We express the pattern verbally as a syllogism or graphically in a Venn diagram. But the formalization is simply res mentis. The concept being formally described is self-existent.

Similarly, mathematics is valid because it expresses relationships among quantifiable concepts in ways that are sometimes self-evident. These relationships are expressed as rules, but the expressions themselves are not the rules. Because techniques like induction let us extend rules from things we can see to things we cannot see, we can continue to rely upon mathematics to provide knowledge beyond what we can verify directly.

One good example is the quaternion. It's a very abstract way of thinking about angles in three dimensions that works better than the familiar Euler angles (i.e., roll, pitch, and yaw). If you express directions as quaternions instead of Euler angles, you can more elegantly describe the angle between those directions. The observable effect is that your spaceship smoothly changes attitude using minimum fuel. But under the hood, quaternions let solutions sneak partway into four dimensions of space. A quaternion obeys all the rules of math. A quaternion lets you do things that you can observe in the real word to have the desired effect. But in an important way, they exist only as res mentis. Something points naturally and self-evidently in a direction. Math gives us several formalisms to describe the directions; the formalisms do not separately or meaningfully exist outside the mind.

Statistics is also a good example. The normal distribution describes a real-world behavior. But it derives from an understanding of mathematical rules for how real-world events like coin tosses must behave. We then rely upon the mathematical rules to draw conclusions about what we observe. The rules let us assign a probability to a predicted outcome. But a probability doesn't exist as a real-world thing. It exists only as an abstract way for us to reason about the prediction and its observed outcome.

There is no false dichotomy here. We're not trying to say that anything that can't be verified empirically can't be valid. In fact, science relies upon these human-contrived tools to accurately describe things we cannot directly observe.
 
Last edited:
It will be kind of sad if this is all a misunderstanding, where we think he's trying to introduce paranormal claims by the back door, but in fact he's just innocently flogging an inane philosophical point.

That would, indeed, be interesting to know, but how would I know? What evidence would I need? And how would I understand that?

(Sorry...Maybe...Just a little bit...)
 
I find myself wondering whether his use of paranormal-coded language might be an artifact of his reliance upon AI. When he feeds his own unique brand of gibberish to an AI, and the AI struggles to find any sense in it, the AI might well conclude the gibberish looks like it might have something to do with paranormal crackpottery, leading the AI to amplify that AI slop connection to the paranormal when the AI rephrases his gibberish.
Yes, we considered this. We pointed out to @Gubiosak pages ago (and in his other threads) that by having AI write his arguments in a language he does not know, he might be inadvertently allowing it to introduce nuances or idioms of expressions that he did not intend and which he could not detect. He assured us that he was not using AI in a way that could lead to that. While it's a good idea to remind him again, I consider him warned. No matter how you slice it, he needs to respond to my post without using AI to write the response.
 
You’re demanding to "find logic or mathematics in the wild outside a human brain," but that is a category mistake. Abstract truths and formal systems are not physical objects you can stumble upon in the woods;

Well, yeah, that was CFK's point: these things are not verifiably present anywhere outside the human mind. The question then becomes why anyone should believe that they actually *exist* anywhere outside the human mind when, by your own admission, they are never found there.
 
Well, yeah, that was CFK's point: these things are not verifiably present anywhere outside the human mind. The question then becomes why anyone should believe that they actually *exist* anywhere outside the human mind when, by your own admission, they are never found there.
…and therefore why it makes sense to ask about what type of evidence supports them.
 
He has posted this on the Paranormal board for a reason, I believe.

This is the kind of pho-logic game I once played. Instead of just coming straight out and stating a claim, or making an argument for the existence of something what we're getting a shuffling of slanted questions in hopes of building a foundation on which he can then spring his philosophical point on us. The trick is to back us into an intellectual corner where we get stuck agreeing with him. It's a high school debate team tactic.

Problem is he is not good at it. Honestly, in his case he'll have better luck with the direct approach. He's spinning himself in circles but doesn't seem to be aware of this.
 
He has posted this on the Paranormal board for a reason, I believe.

This is the kind of pho-logic game I once played. Instead of just coming straight out and stating a claim, or making an argument for the existence of something what we're getting a shuffling of slanted questions in hopes of building a foundation on which he can then spring his philosophical point on us. The trick is to back us into an intellectual corner where we get stuck agreeing with him. It's a high school debate team tactic.

Problem is he is not good at it. Honestly, in his case he'll have better luck with the direct approach. He's spinning himself in circles but doesn't seem to be aware of this.

And most of us went to high school (or other countries' equivalents) and heard this sort of ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ when we were 14; then we went on to discover stoner philosophy; and along the way we worked out what BS was and how some folk try to use it.

Oh, and we know what some long words mean, even of Latinate origin, as we may not have had the Latin for the judging, but we had a couple of years of the Latin.

Nothing new on show from our OP.
 
He has posted this on the Paranormal board for a reason, I believe.
We have a section for science in general. We have a section for philosophy in general. Why post in the paranormal section unless the paranormal is going to show up at some point?

The trick is to back us into an intellectual corner where we get stuck agreeing with him. It's a high school debate team tactic.
I'm pretty sure that's what he's trying to do. He wants to pinion us into admitting that we can know things by means other than empirical evidence. Then he can say something like, "Then why can't paranormal claims be rationally established by something other than empirical evidence?" The giveaway is "realities that lie outside the scientific method." That's coded language for the age-old special pleading that ghosts, UFOs, and mind-reading are somehow by their very nature explanations that cannot be studied empirically.

First, nobody is claiming that empirical science is the only source of knowledge. He can't seem to stop taking whacks at that straw man.

Second, the category error he should be worried about is his. Proving that quaternions work is not the kind of question that needs empirical evidence. Proving that mind-reading works is that kind of question.

Problem is he is not good at it. Honestly, in his case he'll have better luck with the direct approach. He's spinning himself in circles but doesn't seem to be aware of this.
Dumping loads of misdirected AI slop in response to serious questions merely irritates people who would otherwise enjoy a conversation with him about the nature of belief in the paranormal.
 
The Genetic Fallacy of the "AI accusation"

Dismissing an argument simply by claiming it was written by or assisted by AI is a classic example of the genetic fallacy. This informal fallacy occurs when the logical validity or truth value of a claim is rejected based solely on its origin rather than its content.

In any debate rooted in scientific skepticism and critical thinking, the relevant questions are:

  1. Are the premises true?
  2. Is the logical structure sound?
  3. Do the presented sources and evidence support the conclusion?
Whether a text was drafted by a human, run through a translation tool, polished by grammar software, or formatted with the help of an LLM, the factual correctness and logical integrity of the points made do not change. Focusing on the presumed tool of creation rather than refuting the actual argument or evidence is a departure from critical inquiry and an avoidance of the actual topic.
 
The genetic fallacy occurs when someone evaluates a claim solely based on its origin, rather than examining the content, evidence, and arguments supporting that claim.

In the context of AI use, saying that an argument is invalid simply because it was produced or assisted by AI can be an example of this type of reasoning. The origin of information can be relevant when assessing its reliability, but it is not, by itself, proof that the information is false. What matters is checking the sources, logical consistency, supporting evidence, and whether the claims can be independently verified.

Likewise, the fact that a text was written by a human does not guarantee that it is correct. Humans can make mistakes, present false information, or use invalid arguments. Therefore, both human-written texts and texts produced with the assistance of AI should be evaluated based on their content and the evidence supporting them.

This does not mean that the use of AI should be ignored. It is perfectly legitimate to question how information was produced and to verify its sources, especially because AI systems can make mistakes or reproduce inaccurate information. The point is that identifying the origin of an argument should be the beginning of the verification process, not a substitute for analyzing the argument itself.

Therefore, the statement “this was produced using AI, therefore it is false” does not demonstrate that the content is false. To establish that, one would need to specifically identify which claim is incorrect, provide evidence that contradicts it, or demonstrate the logical flaw in the argument.
 
He has posted this on the Paranormal board for a reason, I believe.
This sub-forum is called "General Skepticism and the Paranormal", where we are asked to "discuss aspects of the paranormal, as well as general questions and comments on things skeptical, such as dowsing, UFOs, etc.". Perhaps, like some other posters, Gubiosak is just confused about the scope of this forum. Or perhaps we are confused.

Either way, the amount of 'informal' responses indicates that most posters are not taking it seriously. This is expected because skeptics don't take the paranormal seriously. It's all bunk, and we are only here to lampoon it. Since Gubiosak isn't discussing any particular paranormal claims, perhaps the thread should be moved to a more appropriate sub-forum such as Religion and Philosophy.

This is the kind of pho-logic game I once played. Instead of just coming straight out and stating a claim, or making an argument for the existence of something what we're getting a shuffling of slanted questions in hopes of building a foundation on which he can then spring his philosophical point on us. The trick is to back us into an intellectual corner where we get stuck agreeing with him. It's a high school debate team tactic.
Gubiosak may also be under the misapprehension that this forum is for debating, when it's actually just for poking fun at people who believe in the paranormal. Ironically, the tool we use for that is scientism, which we wield while at the same time denying that it exists!

Gubiosak has already tricked us into denying scientism, but the door is firmly chained so he can't get more than a foot in it. If he is doing as you say, what's the harm? Are you worried that a philosophical argument could cause you to lose faith in science and start believing in the paranormal? Of course not. So why not just enjoy the debate?

Problem is he is not good at it. Honestly, in his case he'll have better luck with the direct approach. He's spinning himself in circles but doesn't seem to be aware of this.
Not speaking the same language is a big handicap, and using AI isn't helping (another example of how it doesn't live up to its claims). Reasonable people would gave him some slack for that, but skeptics are not reasonable people.
 
The genetic fallacy...
No..

This is a stale dodge. When someone is asking you to explain what you mean, turning the answer over to an AI is inexcusable. You ignored what I wrote, dumped a bunch of irrelevant AI slop into your response, and pretended that was enough. Stop giving knee-jerk, "That's a fallacy!" answers when people point out your bad behavior. Read the posts and respond to the arguments. Use your brain, not someone else's.
 
Last edited:
In the context of AI use, saying that an argument is invalid simply because it was produced or assisted by AI can be an example of this type of reasoning. The origin of information can be relevant when assessing its reliability, but it is not, by itself, proof that the information is false.
That's true. But we aren't in a formal debate here. Posters use their 'common sense' and intuition to decide what to accept or reject.

The unreliability of AI is well known, and many of us are sick of it. We have seen it screw up many times, and so have no confidence in its ability to present information correctly, let alone be an accurate translation of your ideas. Perhaps we are being too harsh and your AI is actually doing a good job, but we have no way to evaluate that so we have to be skeptical. In another situation we might be more lenient, but here skepticism is paramount.

What matters is checking the sources, logical consistency, supporting evidence, and whether the claims can be independently verified.
Even when this is possible, it's often hard work. The extra layer of AI is making it much harder because AI doesn't show its sources. Making the reader do extra work is considered bad form here, for obvious reasons. It might be better to avoid AI and write everything yourself. Then use a service like Google Translate to turn it into English.

Likewise, the fact that a text was written by a human does not guarantee that it is correct. Humans can make mistakes, present false information, or use invalid arguments. Therefore, both human-written texts and texts produced with the assistance of AI should be evaluated based on their content and the evidence supporting them.
Also true, but we want to converse with a human, not an AI. The human brain is tuned for communication between people. There's a lot of 'reading between the lines' going on in our heads that strengthens the connection. AI doesn't have that. This is actually a very serious issue. Increasingly the evidence is showing that conversing with AI changes how you think, and not in a good way.

ChatGPT May Be Eroding Critical Thinking Skills, According to a New MIT Study
Researchers used an EEG to record the writers’ brain activity across 32 regions, and found that of the three groups, ChatGPT users had the lowest brain engagement and “consistently underperformed at neural, linguistic, and behavioral levels.” Over the course of several months, ChatGPT users got lazier with each subsequent essay, often resorting to copy-and-paste by the end of the study.
AI makes you lazy, reduces cognitive skills and weakens engagement. Skeptics value their critical thinking skills highly and don't want to risk damaging them, lest we fall prey to irrational beliefs. The other problems are serious too, especially for people who already spend too much time here.

My advice is don't do AI - it will rot your brain as badly or worse than those drugs we are told not to take.

Therefore, the statement “this was produced using AI, therefore it is false” does not demonstrate that the content is false. To establish that, one would need to specifically identify which claim is incorrect, provide evidence that contradicts it, or demonstrate the logical flaw in the argument.
Or treat it with the disdain it deserves, and spend our valuable time on something more worthwhile than curating AI.
 
Last edited:
As for subjective experience (qualia): the fact that my experience of pain happens within my brain doesn't mean my belief that I am in pain lacks rational justification. I don't need a double-blind peer-reviewed study to rationally know I have a headache. First-person epistemic access is real, even if it isn't "publicly observable empirical data."
It is, in fact, the only think that you can know for absolute certain. Cogito, ergo sum. But your first-person epistemic access is not available to me, so I am free to doubt its existence.

It will be kind of sad if this is all a misunderstanding, where we think he's trying to introduce paranormal claims by the back door, but in fact he's just innocently flogging an inane philosophical point.
Rehashing centuries of epistemology, perhaps?

This is the kind of pho-logic game I once played
Sounds delicious!

Therefore, the statement “this was produced using AI, therefore it is false” does not demonstrate that the content is false.
It does, however, demonstrate that the words presented are not your own, and may not accurately reflect your thoughts and opinions.
 
It does, however, demonstrate that the words presented are not your own, and may not accurately reflect your thoughts and opinions.
We seem to have once again arrived at the stage that every @Gubiosak thread attains where he just flings random accusations of fallacy every time someone isn't fooled by his sophomoric debate stunts. "This was produced by AI and is therefore false," is not my argument or complaint. I pointed out that the substance of his rebuttal was unresponsive to post he quoted. That's valid criticism no matter how the words are generated. Going on to point out that it was obviously AI-generated simply ices the cake: he's too lazy to type out his own irrelevant gibberish. "This was produced by AI and is therefore not your argument," is more accurate. Two separate complaints, both equally valid.

To that we can add that knee-jerk fallacy-spotting is a third category of evasion. Every time someone mentions AI, regardless of context or relevance, he rants about the generative fallacy and thinks that excuses him from answering whatever else was mentioned in the post containing the AI reference.
 
It's called the Fallacy Fallacy, or the Argument from naming logical fallacies.
The Fallacy Fallacy is the notion that just because an argument contains a fallacy doesn't mean its conclusion is false. The conclusion could be true according to a different, sound argument.

Pointing out that something is a fallacy is not an argument.
Not the way he's doing it, which is more in line with Aristotle's original ignoratio elenchi. That basically means just to miss the point. Whenever someone isn't taken in by his rather ham-fisted attempts at debate gotchas! he tries to name some fallacy the undermining post commits. For example, when he deploys an obvious straw man, he complains when people don't take the straw argument seriously and accuses them of failing to address the substance of the straw claim.

But obviously identifying fallacies in your opponent's argument is a perfectly valid way to argue. If the hypothetical argument is, "If you accept propositions in math and logic without empirical evidence, then to be consistent you should accept paranormal claims without empirical evidence," then it's perfectly acceptable argumentation to point out that the argument commits the False Equivalence fallacy. Lawyers rely heavily on identifying that particular fallacy in opposing parties' arguments.
 
The Fallacy Fallacy is the notion that just because an argument contains a fallacy doesn't mean its conclusion is false. The conclusion could be true according to a different, sound argument.


Not the way he's doing it, which is more in line with Aristotle's original ignoratio elenchi. That basically means just to miss the point. Whenever someone isn't taken in by his rather ham-fisted attempts at debate gotchas! he tries to name some fallacy the undermining post commits. For example, when he deploys an obvious straw man, he complains when people don't take the straw argument seriously and accuses them of failing to address the substance of the straw claim.

But obviously identifying fallacies in your opponent's argument is a perfectly valid way to argue. If the hypothetical argument is, "If you accept propositions in math and logic without empirical evidence, then to be consistent you should accept paranormal claims without empirical evidence," then it's perfectly acceptable argumentation to point out that the argument commits the False Equivalence fallacy. Lawyers rely heavily on identifying that particular fallacy in opposing parties' arguments.
Irony aside, accusing me of ignoratio elenchi while completely ignoring my thesis on scientism is the ultimate textbook example of missing the point.

You just admitted that identifying logical flaws is valid argumentation. So let's stop hiding behind translation debates and Latin terms:

My thesis is straightforward: Scientism—the claim that empirical science is the ONLY source of valid knowledge—is self-refuting, because that claim itself cannot be proven empirically.

That is the core argument. If the logic fails, address the proposition directly instead of debating meta-rules.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom