theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
It will be kind of sad if this is all a misunderstanding, where we think he's trying to introduce paranormal claims by the back door, but in fact he's just innocently flogging an inane philosophical point.
Don't mistake the tight little solipsistic circles that our OP is spinning in as an accurate representation of the philosophy of science. It's just coffeehouse navel-gazing served on a bed of AI slop. Be that as it may, all this rhetorical pearl-clutching serves philosophers a lot more than it serves scientists.Wake me up when epistemology has sorted out anything of any use, then, rather than going round in circles about what anything means.
Nor have I.I didn't say logic and maths were invalid, did I?
It will be kind of sad if this is all a misunderstanding, where we think he's trying to introduce paranormal claims by the back door, but in fact he's just innocently flogging an inane philosophical point.
Yes, we considered this. We pointed out to @Gubiosak pages ago (and in his other threads) that by having AI write his arguments in a language he does not know, he might be inadvertently allowing it to introduce nuances or idioms of expressions that he did not intend and which he could not detect. He assured us that he was not using AI in a way that could lead to that. While it's a good idea to remind him again, I consider him warned. No matter how you slice it, he needs to respond to my post without using AI to write the response.I find myself wondering whether his use of paranormal-coded language might be an artifact of his reliance upon AI. When he feeds his own unique brand of gibberish to an AI, and the AI struggles to find any sense in it, the AI might well conclude the gibberish looks like it might have something to do with paranormal crackpottery, leading the AI to amplify that AI slop connection to the paranormal when the AI rephrases his gibberish.
You’re demanding to "find logic or mathematics in the wild outside a human brain," but that is a category mistake. Abstract truths and formal systems are not physical objects you can stumble upon in the woods;
…and therefore why it makes sense to ask about what type of evidence supports them.Well, yeah, that was CFK's point: these things are not verifiably present anywhere outside the human mind. The question then becomes why anyone should believe that they actually *exist* anywhere outside the human mind when, by your own admission, they are never found there.
Dismissing centuries of epistemology as "Ouroboros" doesn't escape it;
He has posted this on the Paranormal board for a reason, I believe.
This is the kind of pho-logic game I once played. Instead of just coming straight out and stating a claim, or making an argument for the existence of something what we're getting a shuffling of slanted questions in hopes of building a foundation on which he can then spring his philosophical point on us. The trick is to back us into an intellectual corner where we get stuck agreeing with him. It's a high school debate team tactic.
Problem is he is not good at it. Honestly, in his case he'll have better luck with the direct approach. He's spinning himself in circles but doesn't seem to be aware of this.
We have a section for science in general. We have a section for philosophy in general. Why post in the paranormal section unless the paranormal is going to show up at some point?He has posted this on the Paranormal board for a reason, I believe.
I'm pretty sure that's what he's trying to do. He wants to pinion us into admitting that we can know things by means other than empirical evidence. Then he can say something like, "Then why can't paranormal claims be rationally established by something other than empirical evidence?" The giveaway is "realities that lie outside the scientific method." That's coded language for the age-old special pleading that ghosts, UFOs, and mind-reading are somehow by their very nature explanations that cannot be studied empirically.The trick is to back us into an intellectual corner where we get stuck agreeing with him. It's a high school debate team tactic.
Dumping loads of misdirected AI slop in response to serious questions merely irritates people who would otherwise enjoy a conversation with him about the nature of belief in the paranormal.Problem is he is not good at it. Honestly, in his case he'll have better luck with the direct approach. He's spinning himself in circles but doesn't seem to be aware of this.
This sub-forum is called "General Skepticism and the Paranormal", where we are asked to "discuss aspects of the paranormal, as well as general questions and comments on things skeptical, such as dowsing, UFOs, etc.". Perhaps, like some other posters, Gubiosak is just confused about the scope of this forum. Or perhaps we are confused.He has posted this on the Paranormal board for a reason, I believe.
Gubiosak may also be under the misapprehension that this forum is for debating, when it's actually just for poking fun at people who believe in the paranormal. Ironically, the tool we use for that is scientism, which we wield while at the same time denying that it exists!This is the kind of pho-logic game I once played. Instead of just coming straight out and stating a claim, or making an argument for the existence of something what we're getting a shuffling of slanted questions in hopes of building a foundation on which he can then spring his philosophical point on us. The trick is to back us into an intellectual corner where we get stuck agreeing with him. It's a high school debate team tactic.
Not speaking the same language is a big handicap, and using AI isn't helping (another example of how it doesn't live up to its claims). Reasonable people would gave him some slack for that, but skeptics are not reasonable people.Problem is he is not good at it. Honestly, in his case he'll have better luck with the direct approach. He's spinning himself in circles but doesn't seem to be aware of this.
No..The genetic fallacy...
That's true. But we aren't in a formal debate here. Posters use their 'common sense' and intuition to decide what to accept or reject.In the context of AI use, saying that an argument is invalid simply because it was produced or assisted by AI can be an example of this type of reasoning. The origin of information can be relevant when assessing its reliability, but it is not, by itself, proof that the information is false.
Even when this is possible, it's often hard work. The extra layer of AI is making it much harder because AI doesn't show its sources. Making the reader do extra work is considered bad form here, for obvious reasons. It might be better to avoid AI and write everything yourself. Then use a service like Google Translate to turn it into English.What matters is checking the sources, logical consistency, supporting evidence, and whether the claims can be independently verified.
Also true, but we want to converse with a human, not an AI. The human brain is tuned for communication between people. There's a lot of 'reading between the lines' going on in our heads that strengthens the connection. AI doesn't have that. This is actually a very serious issue. Increasingly the evidence is showing that conversing with AI changes how you think, and not in a good way.Likewise, the fact that a text was written by a human does not guarantee that it is correct. Humans can make mistakes, present false information, or use invalid arguments. Therefore, both human-written texts and texts produced with the assistance of AI should be evaluated based on their content and the evidence supporting them.
AI makes you lazy, reduces cognitive skills and weakens engagement. Skeptics value their critical thinking skills highly and don't want to risk damaging them, lest we fall prey to irrational beliefs. The other problems are serious too, especially for people who already spend too much time here.Researchers used an EEG to record the writers’ brain activity across 32 regions, and found that of the three groups, ChatGPT users had the lowest brain engagement and “consistently underperformed at neural, linguistic, and behavioral levels.” Over the course of several months, ChatGPT users got lazier with each subsequent essay, often resorting to copy-and-paste by the end of the study.
Or treat it with the disdain it deserves, and spend our valuable time on something more worthwhile than curating AI.Therefore, the statement “this was produced using AI, therefore it is false” does not demonstrate that the content is false. To establish that, one would need to specifically identify which claim is incorrect, provide evidence that contradicts it, or demonstrate the logical flaw in the argument.
It is, in fact, the only think that you can know for absolute certain. Cogito, ergo sum. But your first-person epistemic access is not available to me, so I am free to doubt its existence.As for subjective experience (qualia): the fact that my experience of pain happens within my brain doesn't mean my belief that I am in pain lacks rational justification. I don't need a double-blind peer-reviewed study to rationally know I have a headache. First-person epistemic access is real, even if it isn't "publicly observable empirical data."
Rehashing centuries of epistemology, perhaps?It will be kind of sad if this is all a misunderstanding, where we think he's trying to introduce paranormal claims by the back door, but in fact he's just innocently flogging an inane philosophical point.
Sounds delicious!This is the kind of pho-logic game I once played
It does, however, demonstrate that the words presented are not your own, and may not accurately reflect your thoughts and opinions.Therefore, the statement “this was produced using AI, therefore it is false” does not demonstrate that the content is false.
We seem to have once again arrived at the stage that every @Gubiosak thread attains where he just flings random accusations of fallacy every time someone isn't fooled by his sophomoric debate stunts. "This was produced by AI and is therefore false," is not my argument or complaint. I pointed out that the substance of his rebuttal was unresponsive to post he quoted. That's valid criticism no matter how the words are generated. Going on to point out that it was obviously AI-generated simply ices the cake: he's too lazy to type out his own irrelevant gibberish. "This was produced by AI and is therefore not your argument," is more accurate. Two separate complaints, both equally valid.It does, however, demonstrate that the words presented are not your own, and may not accurately reflect your thoughts and opinions.
The Fallacy Fallacy is the notion that just because an argument contains a fallacy doesn't mean its conclusion is false. The conclusion could be true according to a different, sound argument.It's called the Fallacy Fallacy, or the Argument from naming logical fallacies.
Not the way he's doing it, which is more in line with Aristotle's original ignoratio elenchi. That basically means just to miss the point. Whenever someone isn't taken in by his rather ham-fisted attempts at debate gotchas! he tries to name some fallacy the undermining post commits. For example, when he deploys an obvious straw man, he complains when people don't take the straw argument seriously and accuses them of failing to address the substance of the straw claim.Pointing out that something is a fallacy is not an argument.
Irony aside, accusing me of ignoratio elenchi while completely ignoring my thesis on scientism is the ultimate textbook example of missing the point.The Fallacy Fallacy is the notion that just because an argument contains a fallacy doesn't mean its conclusion is false. The conclusion could be true according to a different, sound argument.
Not the way he's doing it, which is more in line with Aristotle's original ignoratio elenchi. That basically means just to miss the point. Whenever someone isn't taken in by his rather ham-fisted attempts at debate gotchas! he tries to name some fallacy the undermining post commits. For example, when he deploys an obvious straw man, he complains when people don't take the straw argument seriously and accuses them of failing to address the substance of the straw claim.
But obviously identifying fallacies in your opponent's argument is a perfectly valid way to argue. If the hypothetical argument is, "If you accept propositions in math and logic without empirical evidence, then to be consistent you should accept paranormal claims without empirical evidence," then it's perfectly acceptable argumentation to point out that the argument commits the False Equivalence fallacy. Lawyers rely heavily on identifying that particular fallacy in opposing parties' arguments.