Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[Helen]

Maybe we can condition Poem's tastes into a kink for argumentation rather than shaming.

I think you're far, far too late for that...

 

[catsmate]

And the excuses continue - excuses for a industry that spams anything-goes porn to kids.

We're still waiting for you to provide evidence for you assertions.

 

[catsmate]

I'm quoting. But you knew that.

Quoting whom? Where?

 

[Poem]

No.

Speech is not "mere" to me. It is one of the most important things humans can do. Preserving the right of humans to speak freely, even about distasteful subjects, even anti-social ways, is one of the most important values a civilized society can uphold.

Pornography is speech about sex. It is just as important to me as any other kind of speech. Upholding the human right to speak about sex is just as important to me as upholding the human right to speak about anything else. Speech is important. The right to free speech is important.

Correct. I also wouldn't recommend football as a career path. But some people choose these careers despite my advice. I'm okay with that.


Somehow in the welter of nonsense that has characterized this thread, I missed that. But I'm glad it's clear. There's not much left to debate, now. You've stated your position - your arguments and reasoning. Now's the time to either answer questions, or step back and let people decide for themselves whether they agree with you.



Okay.


If you have an argument along those lines, make it.


So? If you have a complete argument along these lines, make it.



Is it, though? Is it really ok for you? Are we really done wrangling? Will you really stop trying to get me to make your arguments for you? Will you really just make your own arguments now, in your own words? Will you really step back and let people decide for themselves whether they agree with you, instead of trying to manufacture agreement without consent, via misquotes and misrepresentations?

Is it really ok, or are you just saying that while you regroup and prepare for another round of this?

I asked you a whole bunch of questions and you ignored them.

 

[Darat]

Apparently, acbytesla lied.

What are you saying with quoting that post?

 

[theprestige]

I asked you a whole bunch of questions and you ignored them.

They seemed rhetorical. I'm not interested in your idea of Socratic dialog, or whatever it is you call your questioning.

If you have an argument to make, make it yourself. Don't keep trying to build your argument around the answers you hope you'll get from questioning me.

 

[Lithrael]

Genuinely, I do not see who you're quoting with any part of the post I replied to with sass about shaming instead of making an argument:

And the excuses continue - excuses for an industry that spams anything-goes porn to kids.

Did you think I was referring to a different post of yours? I'd already responded to the ones trying to use acbytesla's opinions about tastes changing as evidence for porn's ability to make straight people gay. Which was an argument, just not a good one, and didn't particularly involve shaming.

 

[arthwollipot]

It is foundational - but I did not use the words 'nothing more than'.

Correct.

Never said it was abnormal.

It is.

Indeed...that is my understanding.

You're not talking like you think this, unless and until you are pressured into doing so. I accuse you of being dishonest.

Any evidence that this will change someone from being hetrosexual to being bisexual or homosexual?

It's worse than this. Poem is not claiming that porn will turn someone into a homosexual. Poem is claiming that porn will turn someone into a child molester.

Evidence that total uninterest in x can morph into finding x delicious was presented.

No it wasn't. An argument was made. An opinion was stated. No evidence for anything was presented.

But I have never been able to change my sexual orientation.

Unlike most, I have actually tried to. I once tried to be bisexual in order to sleep with a man I was interested in. It didn't work out. No porn was involved, though. Maybe if I'd watched more porn. No wait, this was in the early 90s before the internet was flooded with it. Never mind.

 

[Poem]

You're not talking like you think this, unless and until you are pressured into doing so. I accuse you of being dishonest.

You do.

It's worse than this. Poem is not claiming that porn will turn someone into a homosexual. Poem is claiming that porn will turn someone into a child molester.

I refer you back to acbytesla's experience of morphing taste. Whilst that does not prove causation (of molestation) - it lays the foundation for the possibility of acquiring such sexual taste.

No it wasn't. An argument was made. An opinion was stated. No evidence for anything was presented.

acbytesla is a liar? They stated their experience and it won't be a unique one.

Unlike most, I have actually tried to. I once tried to be bisexual in order to sleep with a man I was interested in. It didn't work out. No porn was involved, though. Maybe if I'd watched more porn. No wait, this was in the early 90s before the internet was flooded with it. Never mind.

The main risk is spamming young people whose sexual scripts are still under construction. That is what your porn industry is doing.

 

[Poem]

Genuinely, I do not see who you're quoting with any part of the post I replied to with sass about shaming instead of making an argument:

Did you think I was referring to a different post of yours? I'd already responded to the ones trying to use acbytesla's opinions about tastes changing as evidence for porn's ability to make straight people gay. Which was an argument, just not a good one, and didn't particularly involve shaming.

I think this is what you are looking for:

True, fair enough. But why is it being given the responsibility of being educational? It's entertainment, and not for kids. Are we picturing something like the little PSAs they put at the end of GI Joe episodes?

Nobody is taking responsibility for teaching healthy sexual relationships to children.

Instead you're falling all over yourself, trying to make excuses for a porn industry that's spamming undifferentiated kinks to children without restraint.

Oh. I am? Gosh. Okay.

 

[Lithrael]

Oh, okay. I'm sure you'll forgive me for not recognising a rephrased 'quote' from a month ago.

I very much did not 'know that.'

 

[Poem]

Oh, okay. I'm sure you'll forgive me for not recognising a rephrased 'quote' from a month ago.

I very much did not 'know that.'

Well, the charge remains - the porn industry is doing that.

 

[theprestige]

Well, the charge remains - the porn industry is doing that.

I withdraw the charge. Lithrael nor anyone else should feel obligated to address it, or any other claim I've made, in place of addressing your own claims and arguments.

 

[Darat]

Well, the charge remains - the porn industry is doing that.

Any evidence that watching porn can turn a hetrosexual into a bisexual or homosexual person?

 

[arthwollipot]

You do.

Yes. I think you are as against homosexuality as you are against porn. You just choose to talk mostly about porn in this thread, because you know that speaking out against homosexuality will not get you very far in the 21st century as that battle was won decades ago.

I refer you back to acbytesla's experience of morphing taste. Whilst that does not prove causation (of molestation) - it lays the foundation for the possibility of acquiring such sexual taste.

acbytesla is a liar? They stated their experience and it won't be a unique one.

No, you are a liar by stating that acbytesla is saying that people can acquire homosexuality or paedophilia via porn. acbytesla said nothing like that.

The main risk is spamming young people whose sexual scripts are still under construction. That is what your porn industry is doing.

Not my industry, mate. I've never made porn in my life.

I ask again, for the umpty-twelfth time - when was the last time you, personally, accidentally stumbled across porn?

Any evidence that watching porn can turn a hetrosexual into a bisexual or homosexual person?

Or a paedophile?

 

[acbytesla]

There is a difference between saying that tastes evolve over time and assigning causes for that evolution. I used to dislike horseradish, sour cream, and strawberries and today I like them all. Not sure why, but I do. I'm sure that sexual interests change over time. Latent homosexuality is a description of individuals that came to homosexuality later in life.

Does porn sometimes open people's eyes to different lifestyle choices? Most certainly. Just as sexually descriptive books and other publications do. But they don't cause anyone to make such a choice. My point has always been is that adults should be able to watch what they want as long as it doesn't involve minors.

 

[Joe Random]

In my 20s I worked for a few years at a place where I was one of the very few heteros employed (not by design, just by accident). The vast majority were either gay (most), lesbian (lesser), or bi (the fewest). My dating life would have been so much easier back then if I could have managed to find sexual attraction to another man. The fruits where there to be plucked, if you will.

But no matter what, the thought of doing something sexual with another man never did, and never would, be anything to me but a turn-off. Despite being immersed in that environment and presented with real-world opportunities on a daily basis nothing changed how I felt. So I categorically reject the notion that pr0n can change a person's orientation.

(side note - on the plus side, that was the job that inspired me to make marriage equality one of the very few causes I worked for IRL.)

Give you cause to explore something you were curious about? Sure. Give you an excuse to try something you hadn't thought about before? Sure. But I'll maintain that you simply can't change someone's orientation by just showing them pictures.

Now I'm waiting for Helen Lovejoy Poem to throw up someone else's quote as a rebuttal, rather than his own arguments (such as they are).

 

[Darat]

Even today most homosexuals are brought up in a world completely saturated by heteosexual images, movies, books, cartoons, songs, porn etc. if Poem's claim was correct there would never have been any homosexuals or bisexuals in the past or today.

 

[acbytesla]

In my 20s I worked for a few years at a place where I was one of the very few heteros employed (not by design, just by accident). The vast majority were either gay (most), lesbian (lesser), or bi (the fewest). My dating life would have been so much easier back then if I could have managed to find sexual attraction to another man. The fruits where there to be plucked, if you will.

But no matter what, the thought of doing something sexual with another man never did, and never would, be anything to me but a turn-off. Despite being immersed in that environment and presented with real-world opportunities on a daily basis nothing changed how I felt. So I categorically reject the notion that pr0n can change a person's orientation.

(side note - on the plus side, that was the job that inspired me to make marriage equality one of the very few causes I worked for IRL.)

Give you cause to explore something you were curious about? Sure. Give you an excuse to try something you hadn't thought about before? Sure. But I'll maintain that you simply can't change someone's orientation by just showing them pictures.

Now I'm waiting for Helen Lovejoy Poem to throw up someone else's quote as a rebuttal, rather than his own arguments (such as they are).

Me too. I even tended bar at a mostly gay nightclub in Seattle. I would get hit on pretty much every night and even a couple of times by women acting as wingmen for their boyfriends. But it never interested me.

I agree with this entirely. You are either open to it, or your not. Gay men will see the most beautiful sexy woman and it will do nothing for them. I've heard stories of many gay people who "tried to be straight." But it never worked for them.

 

[jimbob]

Seems to be a thing in at least one Cornell fraternity

And The Onion hits the mark again

Cornell Vows That Rapists Will Be Forced To Write Much Longer Essays In The Future

ITHACA, NY—Acknowledging serious missteps in their handling of a 2024 campus sexual assault case, administrators at Cornell University vowed Tuesday that, going forward, rapists would be forced to write much longer essays as punishment for their behavior. “Upon reviewing the disciplinary action...

theonion.com

Context