General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[NatalieSalat]

Childish insults but no actual evidence.

 

[NatalieSalat]

(better uses for my time)

 

[The Great Zaganza]

As with Caldwell and Chomsky, you and other modern hard-to-far leftists are good at spotting US/West propaganda but not propaganda from those whom you support.

who has the biggest propaganda budget?
who has killed hundreds of journalists reporting from the Gazan perspective?

If you stepped back for a second, the idea that it's not the pro-Israel side that is vastly over-represented in propaganda becomes utterly ludicrous.

What exactly is Israel's existence threatened by - not theoretically, actually?
What is your scenario of Hamas destroying Israel and killing every Israeli?

 

[NatalieSalat]

never mind

 

[Safe-Keeper]

This is the reality of the Israel-Palestinian conflict as we approach the third anniversary of the October 7 massacres. Neither Palestinians nor Israelis want a two-state solution. The Palestinians want to destroy Israel and drive out (or kill) all the Jews. The Israelis want to retain control of all of Eretz Israel (that is, Mandate Palestine), and for the Palestinians to go away, preferably through emigration.

Yeah, this is why I'm just flat out tired of the whole Israel-Palestine 'debate'. It's not a rational war, it's two regimes of religious fanatics trying to wipe each others' people off the face of the earth. It's even more senseless than World War I, which takes a lot --at least that war wasn't genocidal, so it ended when one side had been sufficiently beaten into submission. I don't understand why people are taking sides in the first place, endlessly condemning everything the 'bad guys' are doing while for some reason thinking they had to defend, deflect, hand-wave, and excuse whenever their chosen people (see what I did there?) does or says something horrible.

And yes, Israel is stronger and is actually able to wipe out Palestine, more Arabs are dying than Jews, blah-de-blah-de-blah. Big ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ deal. A genocidal war doesn't stop being such just because one side happens to be winning. It's like watching two parents fighting in front of their children, and instead of trying to break up the fight, the spectators are cheering their parent on, while hurling abuse at the supporters of the other parent.

You really should not keep swallowing leftist intellectual/NGO and UN authoritan country member controlled agitprop on issues such as I-P (and when it comes to the western left, pacifism).

I haven't been following this discussion for a long, long time so I don't know what you're like, but usually when people say this, they're deep in an information silo themselves. The fact that we're talking about the Israel-Palestine ◊◊◊◊ show and your post seems to lean heavily towards supporting one side strengthens this impression for me.

 

[The Atheist]

Childish insults but no actual evidence.

They're not insults, they're true statements. If I wanted to insult you I'd do it properly.

As to the absurd claim that there's no evidence, there are two hundred and twenty-three ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ pages of it.

You post insane propaganda and ignore evidence.

 

[NatalieSalat]

How about not believing stuff propagated by the likes of Walid or Rashid Khalidhi, Ilan Pappe, Chomsky* et al?

The western hard and far left is only more reliable on facts than Rupert when they match existing left wing beliefs.

i.e. The Viet Cong were not good people and they were not a liberation group. There is no Mandela in the Palestinian leadership.

 

[NatalieSalat]

And "Palestine" is simply a commonly used expression among the western left and the countries of the "global south", particularly those of the Islamic world.

There are the Palestinian Territories but there is no actual state of Palestine. All of this fantasy state's claimed territory is controlled directly or indirectly by either the Israelis or an alphabet soup of corrupt and authoritarian violent Muslim-led militias.

 

[jimbob]

This is fighting terrorism: https://www.odt.co.nz/news/world/is...stinian-olive-trees-ahead-of-harvest-dg7g6vv0

No Hamas scum will be able to hide in trees any more and terrorise the peaceful Israeli settlers.

And there's plenty of other examples of this. Some are very petty but hurtful, others are clearly intended to make it very difficult to live as a Palestinian in either Gaza or the West Bank

 

[NatalieSalat]

If i invent a time machine - one trip could be to teach Aisha how to bobbitt her creepy "husband" (and he was also a vicious war lord).

 

[Darat]

And "Palestine" is simply a commonly used expression among the western left and the countries of the "global south", particularly those of the Islamic world.

There are the Palestinian Territories but there is no actual state of Palestine. All of this fantasy state's claimed territory is controlled directly or indirectly by either the Israelis or an alphabet soup of corrupt and authoritarian violent Muslim-led militias.

View media item 8909

 

[NatalieSalat]

 

[jimbob]

View media item 8909

Good video on this going back literally thousands of years.

With evidence.

 

[jimbob]

View attachment 76215

There's no Israel there, either.

What is your point? Palestine is a term for that region that can be traced back to Iron age inscriptions.

A 1970s map of Europe wouldn't have Lithuania. A 1910 map of Europe wouldn't have Austria as a separate Polity.

An 1850s map of Europe wouldn't have Italy as a separate polity

 

[NatalieSalat]

Exactly - a general geo term such as with Anatolia. The western leftist notion that the Jews (with the help of the colonial powers (or later, 'U.S. imperialism')) usurped an existing centuries-old Palestinian nation living in a country called Palestine, is a Lost Cause histography horse hockey.

 

[jimbob]

Exactly - a general geo term such as with Anatolia. The western leftist notion that the Jews (with the help of the colonial powers (or later, 'U.S. imperialism')) usurped an existing centuries-old Palestinian nation living in a country called Palestine, is a Lost Cause histography horse hockey.

Well that's not my position, nor is it that of the British government, or indeed many European governments. Both left and right of centre.

My view is that Israel has a right to exist and a right to security, which is a good reason for Israel to continue to control the Golan Heights, for example. However it doesn't justify what seems like attempts to drive Palestinians off their land in the West Bank. The 104 settlements approved since 2022 are not in the (usually mythical) terra nullis of 19th century colonialism but land that had been used by local villagers who have lived 60 years under Israeli rule, but without the ability to vote.

 

[NatalieSalat]

The militas kind of stop them voting even if Israel wasn't run by Bibi = "collaborators"

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Palestinians of any of the 3 Abrahamic Religions have a claim to the region - Jewish immigration from Europe and Russia have not; unless you think The Old Testament has legal authority.

 

[NatalieSalat]

TGZ is parroting the Lost Cause of the Levant's myth of the eternal centuries old Palestinian nation usurped by the evil Zionists, again.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Eh, the one bright point in the endless war in that area is that the actions of the rest of the world will make the whole area uninhabitable in 100 years or so due to global warming, so both sides will have to leave.