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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

why is the two-state solution impossible? Freilich says:

"The Palestinians have utterly failed the three tests on which the entire Oslo peace process was predicated: their ability to govern effectively, put an end to terrorism, and live in peace alongside Israel. Instead, they have established a corrupt dictatorship in the West Bank and a genocidal theocracy in Gaza, and conducted endless terrorism. Israel shares the blame for Oslo's failure, but Palestinian responsibility is overwhelming and lethal."

"The Palestinians will have to accept, as will the international community, that the most they stand to gain, at least for a long time to come, is heightened autonomy, not a fully independent state. There is a price to be paid for over a century of saying no to every peace proposal and endless terrorism. In reality, Hamas massacred the Palestinian dream of an independent state."

I would add to this that the "friends of Palestine" in western countries bear a heavy responsibility for the failure of the two-state solution. By encouraging the fantasy of "Palestinian resistance" for the past 50 years they have in fact helped make Palestinian statehood impossible.
 
The statement does things that are genuinely appropriate -- it condemns the October 7 attacks, it condemns hostage taking, it calls for hostage release. That's not nothing and it's worth acknowledging.

But then look at the architecture of what's actually being built here.

"Hundreds of thousands of people who have been killed since." This is a significant factual problem. The Gaza death toll at October 2025 was devastating and genuinely terrible, but it was in the tens of thousands according to even the most expansive figures available. Hundreds of thousands is not accurate. A party that claims to base its positions on evidence and human rights documentation should get that number right.

"Genocide" appears multiple times as established fact. The ICJ issued provisional measures -- it did not issue a final ruling establishing genocide. The distinction matters enormously in international law and the Greens are presenting contested legal characterisation as settled determination.

Then the asymmetry in language. Hamas gets "condemned" for specific acts. Israel gets "genocide," "apartheid," "occupation," "unjustifiable and disproportionate violence," "attacks on neighbours." The tonal and substantive gap between how the two actors are described is vast.

And the "cycle of violence that both predates and has intensified since October 7" is doing its quiet work -- contextualising Hamas's attack as part of a cycle rather than a specific decision made by specific people pursuing a specific political program whose Arabic-language articulation the Greens apparently prefer not to examine too closely.

Sir Humphrey Appleby would call it quite courageous drafting...

 
All of this is just gaslighting away from the ongoing war crimes and genocide.

Israel has never not broken a deal it made with Palestinians.
Obviously, it cannot be part of any negotiations - it has no credibility, and no one would ever assume Good Faith from it.

An international Force protecting the region is necessary, with permission to engage either side militarily if necessary.
 
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All of this is just gaslighting away from the ongoing war crimes and genocide.

Israel has never not broken a deal it made with Palestinians.
Obviously, it cannot be part of any negotiations - it has no credibility, and no one would ever assume Good Faith from it.

An international Force protecting the region is necessary, with permission to engage either side militarily if necessary.
Gaslighting means "making you think you are crazy". I'm just pointing out lies and distortions in the Lost Cause of the Levant narrative.
 
Your lot -- secular leftists -- despise the term "illegals" -- is that right? or, am i 'gaslighting'?

Hard to know for this zio...
It's not "leftist" to want the rule of law .

It's not leftist to want people who's family have lived in the same village for generations to be able to vote for a meaningful authority in charge of them.

In the case of the West Bank, this has been Israel for 60 years. Even when there was the Palestinian authority, the fact that Israel has been imposing new settlements shows that it kept vital parts for itself.

It's not leftist to want Israeli settlers to adhere to Israeli law at least and not instigate violence against innocent Palestinian farmers. The Israeli government has taken actions against this but very minimal.
 
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It's not "leftist" to want the rule of law .

It's not leftist to want people who's family have lived in the same village for generations to be able to vote for a meaningful authority in charge of them.

In the case of the West Bank, this has been Israel for 60 years. Even when there was the Palestinian authority, the fact that Israel has been imposing new settlements shows that it kept vital parts for itself.

It's not leftist to want Israeli settlers to adhere to Israeli law at least and not instigate violence against innocent Palestinian farmers. The Israeli government has taken actions against this but very minimal.

Leftists (whose strongholds are in the western academy) have happily propaged the fake Palestinian histographical narrative (what i called earlier the Lost Cause of the Levant myth).

There is no easy solution to the Palestinian question. But the least difficult solution is the most obvious one – to create a Palestinian state in those parts of Mandate Palestine which have not since been absorbed, de jure or de facto, into Israel. That means about 80% of the West Bank, plus the Gaza Strip, plus whatever other land can be acquired through negotiations with Israel (and possibly also with Egypt.)

What proportion of the Palestinian diaspora could realistically be settled in such a small state would be a matter for the Palestinians to resolve, but the international community would have to accept an obligation to resettle elsewhere those who could not be accommodated there, and to provide them with appropriate financial compensation. The bill for this should fall mainly on the wealthy Gulf Arab states, who have encouraged the Palestinians in their illusions for so long.

The main obstacle to achieving such a solution is not the Jewish communities now living in Judaea and Samaria (the so-called “settlements”). Most of them are living in fairly compact blocks around Jerusalem and a few other places, and it would not be difficult draw a border that allows for the creation of a viable Palestinian state. Any solution which requires the eviction of 600,000 Jews living in the historic heart of the Jewish homeland, in places such as Hebron where Jews have lived for three thousand years, will be a non-starter.

The main obstacle has been the absolute refusal of the Palestinian leadership, aided and abetted at various times by the Arab states, the Soviet Union and Iran (among many others) to accept any agreement which recognises the right of the Jewish people to exercise sovereignty in any part of the land they choose to identify as Palestine. This attitude goes all the way back to the report of the Peel Royal Commission in 1936, which was the first to recommend the partition of Mandate Palestine into sovereign Arab and Jewish states.

The Palestinians have had several opportunities to achieve statehood, most recently the Clinton-Barak plan offered to Arafat at Camp David in 2000, followed by Olmert’s even more extensive offer to Abbas in 2008. They have rejected them all because acceptance would have involved the recognition of the permanent existence of Israel as a sovereign Jewish state.

The policy of a centre-left party such as British Labour or Australian Labor should therefore be one of support for Palestinian statehood, to be achieved through direct negotiations with Israel (rather than imposed by international fiat), and involving explicit Palestinian acceptance of the legitimate and permanent existence of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Any suggestion that such a Palestinian state would be merely an interim step towards the “liberation of Palestine, from the River to the Sea” would have to be renounced. The Palestinians would also have to renounce the “right of return” for the Palestinian diaspora, and accept demilitarisation and whatever other security safeguards Israel chose to insist upon.

These are harsh terms, but harsh terms is what you get when you choose to go to war rather than accept compromise, and then lose the war, which is what the Palestinians have been doing for over a century. The paradox of the Palestinian situation, which they have created for themselves, is that they will have to accept defeat before they can achieve any kind of victory.

Much of the left wing of the parties of the centre left will loudly proclaim the unacceptability of such a policy position. My perhaps intemperate reply will be that the parties will be better off without people who are unable to accept such a policy, and that they can go and join one of the sects of the far left, and see how far they get.

But I think in practice most party members and supporters will sooner or later be reconciled to this policy. The fate of the Palestinians is hardly the most pressing issue facing British Labour, Australian Labor, the US Democratic Party or other centre left parties. Even in the field of foreign policy there are much more important questions to face, such as the hegemonic ambitions of the Chinese Communist Party. Only a small minority would ultimately find it impossible to give up “anti-Zionism”, and we really would be better off without them.
 
and you think you are not gaslighting?

no, the obstacle has been that Israel has done all it can to prevent the formation of a Palestinian leadership (as publicly expressed by many Israeli leaders and negotiators), and violently refusing to accept them as legitimate when democratically elected - and then murder them.
Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated because he might have made a deal with Palestinians - and you think that it's Palestinian violence that is preventing a deal?

You are lying to yourself if you believe that Palestinians are what is standing in the way of a peaceful resolution.
 
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the fundamental gaslighting is using events that are older than the majority of Palestinians alive today to justify the killing of them.
 
and you think you are not gaslighting?

no, the obstacle has been that Israel has done all it can to prevent the formation of a Palestinian leadership (as publicly expressed by many Israeli leaders and negotiators), and violently refusing to accept them as legitimate when democratically elected - and then murder them.
Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated because he might have made a deal with Palestinians - and you think that it's Palestinian violence that is preventing a deal?

You are lying to yourself if you believe that Palestinians are what is standing in the way of a peaceful resolution.
The Palestinian Arabs have refused Jewish self-determination since the 1920s. That's the deep irony of the Nakba - Because they went to war - their own stated desire backfired and happened to them.
 
CIA assessment warns of the risk of unrest in the upcoming Israeli Election later this month, possibly leading to a Civil War.


The August report, titled “Fracture From Within,” was compiled by experts in the CIA’s Red Cell ...
CIA experts pointed to a volatile mix of pressures converging ahead of Israel’s elections on October 27: economic crisis and soaring military spending; heavily armed veterans returning from prolonged combat, many carrying serious psychological trauma; growing fury over ultra-Orthodox men who are exempt from military service; escalating settler violence in the occupied West Bank; and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu fighting to hold onto power and igniting a constitutional crisis.
 
and you think you are not gaslighting?

no, the obstacle has been that Israel has done all it can to prevent the formation of a Palestinian leadership (as publicly expressed by many Israeli leaders and negotiators), and violently refusing to accept them as legitimate when democratically elected - and then murder them.
Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated because he might have made a deal with Palestinians - and you think that it's Palestinian violence that is preventing a deal?

You are lying to yourself if you believe that Palestinians are what is standing in the way of a peaceful resolution.
Yes. Why do you supposed the Palestinians rejected this?

 
As US and Israeli negotiators present at the time have said, Arafat was pressured to accept a deal none of them would have accepted if they were him.

But more importantly, most Palestinians were not alive at the time: how are they bound by what a long dead guy did?
 

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