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Ed The Fascism Checklist, Trump 2025

To not derail another thread.

The MAGA movement is clearly not fascist.

It is just hyper nationalist. And hyper Christian, with the clear and stated intent to turn a specific brand of Christiantiy into a state religion.
And banning 'decadent' art
And banning books
And focused on 'Family values' (That most of the proponents openly flaunt themselves)
And led by a single man, whose many incompetent errors are ignored or blamed on flunkies, while claiming to follow democracy.
And it has a clear cult of personality, putting Dear Leader's face and name on everything
And it has a focus on supposed masculinity, where that is expressed with being violent and in control.
And it has started a pointless, costly war that have no clear winner and or strategy
And has camps where 'criminals' can be dragged off to without any form of trial or even indication where they went
And these camps are fed by armed men, who hide their identities and who answer to no government agency.
And it is openly selling off the better parts of the country to their financial backers from various industries.
And it is involved in re-writing history to be heroic and 'winning', while erasing from history any figure going against the narrative.
And the leader is openly calling for fixed elections, because his opponents must have cheated to be winning.
And it is using vulnerable communities as scapegoats to distract the population from it's many failures.
And it is removing all non-loyal parts of the government and other parts of the state that should in theory check the government.


But they don't *call* themselves fascist, it's just pure coincidence Mussolini and Hitler and Franco (and Stalin) did all these things as well.
And pointing that out is really hurtful and might cause people to not be nice and obedient, so we should stop doing that.
But they did not really do all of those things. Mussolini and Hitler were openly hostile to the church and accepted them out of necessity. Franco was really a monarchist but he made common cause with the phalangists which were catholic fascists. And of course, a lot on that list is also true of various marxist and other non-fascist totalitarians. Which, really are all the same anyway so meh.

That being said, while Trump is too stupid and ignorant to be a fascist, there are certainly legit fascists among MAGA and what amounts to Catholic integralists(falangist by another name INHO), and his governance has been functionally indistinguishable from fascism. But at this point, it pointless and useless to keep pointing and yelling fascist.

But it doesn't really matter because the problem is fascist has been nothing but a slur since the end of WWII. Calling Trump a fascist also has a proven track record of accomplishing ◊◊◊◊ all.

Why is it so important that we label Trump a fascist?
 
Because history tells a lot about fascism, its beginnings, next steps, end, etc.
Otherwise we are moving in uncharted waters,
The same lesson it talks about all authoritarians.

Separate thought, it seems to me the most fascisty thing he's done is actually the golden share in US steel. It's still in private ownership and management but the state gets to stop or direct any major decisions. Want to close that factory, no, want to make that kind of steel, no, or yes. But that is something pretty different between fascism and other authoritarian ideologies.
 
Not all Authoritarians are Fascist, but all Fascists are Authoritarian. The numbered Trump actions posted so far are more a definition of Authoritarianism and not Fascism uniquely. Trump is clearly an Authoritarian and mostly a Fascist.

To be pedantic about it, any adequate definition of a the characteristics of a Fascist state must characterize Italy, Romania, Hungry, Austria, Spain and Greece in the run-up to and during World War II. These are the self-identified Fascist states. I would also include Nazi Germany, though is controversial among political scientists. A relevant definition would characterize post-World War II Fascist regimes that are widely recognized as Fascist: Franco’s Spain, Pinochet’s Chile, the military Juntas in Argentina and Brazil, Slobodan Milosevic’s Serbia, Guatemala, Honduras, Park’s South Korea, and Taiwan under the Kuomintang.

Fascist regimes had all or most of the following factors in common to greater or lesser degrees. A regime that maximizes all these factors would be completely Fascist. Other regimes can be partially Fascist.

1. Authoritarian. The state holds absolute power and demands ultimate loyalty. Dissent is treason. The state stokes fear and a sense of crisis to justify an obsession with security, crime, and punishment and an abandonment of human and civil rights. The military commands the lion’s share of the budget and the public’s adoration. Fascism often comes to power in a democratic system, but the Fascist contempt for democratic liberty soon corrupts the process and ends in dictatorship. [Trump is pushing for it, ICE is demanding it, and Hegseth is stocking the military with Trump loyalists, but we have not yet arrived at absolute power. See if Trump tries to overturn or reject the midterm results.]

2. Ultra-nationalist unity. Populists, trans-class revolutionary movement of a purifying national rebirth to overcome perceived degeneration/humiliation/victimhood, and political paralysis. Patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, and flags are ubiquitous. All self-identified Fascist states blended religion, specifically Christianity, with this nationalistic identity, but Christianity and perhaps religion itself does not seem to be Fascism’s aim. A transcendent, cleansing rebirth as a united national community is the aim. [What do you think "Make America Great Again" means?]

3. State-integrated economy. Nationalistic militants work in an uneasy collaboration with traditional corporate power elites. Labor unions are suppressed. Rampant cronyism and corruption is the natural end state. [We got there even before Trump. With Trump, he puts industry leaders in charge of government regulation of that industry. His regime is openly and extensively corrupt.]

4. Chauvinistic. Identifies an enemy as the source of the nation’s problems and focuses the national will on elimination of that scapegoat. Creates a social mythology that venerates one element of society while vilifying and dehumanizing another. Historically, the targets were racial, ethnic or religious minorities, liberals, communists, socialists, conservatives, and intellectuals. [Can you say immigrants, transsexuals, Muslims, intellectuals elites, "communists," and blacks?]

5. Elitist. Rejects equality as a goal, expresses contempt for the weak (but argues that anyone can be strong through will), and extols the manly virtues over feminine weakness. The nation is seen as chosen and deserving to dominate. Militarism and imperialism follow. [Attacks on DEI, contempt for the disabled, images of Trump as a mighty warrior, and open self-justifying imperialism.]

6. Irrational. Creates an emotional cult of will, vigor, unity, and purity. Action is taken for the sake of action. Sheer will can produce truth and the desired result. Intellectuals, the arts, and critical media are scorned as degenerates who bring the nation down by questioning nationalist myth. Lies, propaganda, newspeak, and violence are held to be a beautiful means to a glorious end. [Trump lies, takes action without thought of consequences, and endorses violence against his enemies. Consider the reflecting pool debacle as a metaphor. Incompetence is often confused with irrational, but one can be both incompetent and irrational, Trump being Exhibit A.]
 
1. Authoritarian. The state holds absolute power and demands ultimate loyalty. Dissent is treason. The state stokes fear and a sense of crisis to justify an obsession with security, crime, and punishment and an abandonment of human and civil rights. The military commands the lion’s share of the budget and the public’s adoration. Fascism often comes to power in a democratic system, but the Fascist contempt for democratic liberty soon corrupts the process and ends in dictatorship. [Trump is pushing for it, ICE is demanding it, and Hegseth is stocking the military with Trump loyalists, but we have not yet arrived at absolute power. See if Trump tries to overturn or reject the midterm results.]

this seems to be the only disqualifying point on your list. however you left out his first unsuccessful attempt to overturn the election in 2020
 
Why is it so important that we label Trump a fascist?
Because he is a fascist!
You say so yourself:
his governance has been functionally indistinguishable from fascism.
And yet you also claim that:
Trump is too stupid and ignorant to be a fascist
Really? He is too stupid and ignorant to be a fascist, and yet his governance has been functionally indistinguishable from fascism? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you should consider the possibility that it has the level of intelligence required to actually be a duck.
It speaks volumes that you seem to think that being a fascist requires a certain level of intelligence and knowledge.
Is that idea based on the fact that vast majority of the Republican party has embraced his ideas and his governance?

As for Hitler's alleged hostility to the church and acceptance of it "out of necessity," do you know what happened to institutions and organizations in Nazi Germany that he was actually hostile to?

Your post reminds me of this quotation from post 920:
Director Paul Verhoeven said his 1997 Starship Troopers was about 'fascists who aren't aware of their fascism'
 
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Not all Authoritarians are Fascist, but all Fascists are Authoritarian. The numbered Trump actions posted so far are more a definition of Authoritarianism and not Fascism uniquely. Trump is clearly an Authoritarian and mostly a Fascist.

To be pedantic about it, any adequate definition of a the characteristics of a Fascist state must characterize Italy, Romania, Hungry, Austria, Spain and Greece in the run-up to and during World War II. These are the self-identified Fascist states. I would also include Nazi Germany, though is controversial among political scientists. A relevant definition would characterize post-World War II Fascist regimes that are widely recognized as Fascist: Franco’s Spain, Pinochet’s Chile, the military Juntas in Argentina and Brazil, Slobodan Milosevic’s Serbia, Guatemala, Honduras, Park’s South Korea, and Taiwan under the Kuomintang.

Fascist regimes had all or most of the following factors in common to greater or lesser degrees. A regime that maximizes all these factors would be completely Fascist. Other regimes can be partially Fascist.

1. Authoritarian. The state holds absolute power and demands ultimate loyalty. Dissent is treason. The state stokes fear and a sense of crisis to justify an obsession with security, crime, and punishment and an abandonment of human and civil rights. The military commands the lion’s share of the budget and the public’s adoration. Fascism often comes to power in a democratic system, but the Fascist contempt for democratic liberty soon corrupts the process and ends in dictatorship. [Trump is pushing for it, ICE is demanding it, and Hegseth is stocking the military with Trump loyalists, but we have not yet arrived at absolute power. See if Trump tries to overturn or reject the midterm results.]

2. Ultra-nationalist unity. Populists, trans-class revolutionary movement of a purifying national rebirth to overcome perceived degeneration/humiliation/victimhood, and political paralysis. Patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, and flags are ubiquitous. All self-identified Fascist states blended religion, specifically Christianity, with this nationalistic identity, but Christianity and perhaps religion itself does not seem to be Fascism’s aim. A transcendent, cleansing rebirth as a united national community is the aim. [What do you think "Make America Great Again" means?]

3. State-integrated economy. Nationalistic militants work in an uneasy collaboration with traditional corporate power elites. Labor unions are suppressed. Rampant cronyism and corruption is the natural end state. [We got there even before Trump. With Trump, he puts industry leaders in charge of government regulation of that industry. His regime is openly and extensively corrupt.]

4. Chauvinistic. Identifies an enemy as the source of the nation’s problems and focuses the national will on elimination of that scapegoat. Creates a social mythology that venerates one element of society while vilifying and dehumanizing another. Historically, the targets were racial, ethnic or religious minorities, liberals, communists, socialists, conservatives, and intellectuals. [Can you say immigrants, transsexuals, Muslims, intellectuals elites, "communists," and blacks?]

5. Elitist. Rejects equality as a goal, expresses contempt for the weak (but argues that anyone can be strong through will), and extols the manly virtues over feminine weakness. The nation is seen as chosen and deserving to dominate. Militarism and imperialism follow. [Attacks on DEI, contempt for the disabled, images of Trump as a mighty warrior, and open self-justifying imperialism.]

6. Irrational. Creates an emotional cult of will, vigor, unity, and purity. Action is taken for the sake of action. Sheer will can produce truth and the desired result. Intellectuals, the arts, and critical media are scorned as degenerates who bring the nation down by questioning nationalist myth. Lies, propaganda, newspeak, and violence are held to be a beautiful means to a glorious end. [Trump lies, takes action without thought of consequences, and endorses violence against his enemies. Consider the reflecting pool debacle as a metaphor. Incompetence is often confused with irrational, but one can be both incompetent and irrational, Trump being Exhibit A.]
Welcome to the forums🎉! Yes, Drumpf and MAGA fit fascism pretty much to a tee, and it seems his supporters across the board have all but given up on denying this. The authoritarianism part isn't there yet, but they're working on it, of course, and as was said, they wouldn't be the first far-right dictators to come to power in a democracy.
 
not really sure where the idea that fascists need to be smart and sophisticated came from.
It comes from fiction: for generations now our entertainment has featured genius villains. Clever supervillains, urbane, suave, brilliant intellectual villains. We've come to expect sinister but intelligent schemers to be running the evil plots and heading the gang. The Palpatines, the Moriartys, the Saurons, the Voldemorts. In real life of course we get the Mussolinis and the Idi Amins instead.
 
Because he is a fascist!
You say so yourself:

And yet you also claim that:

Really? He is too stupid and ignorant to be a fascist, and yet his governance has been functionally indistinguishable from fascism? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you should consider the possibility that it has the level of intelligence required to actually be a duck.
It speaks volumes that you seem to think that being a fascist requires a certain level of intelligence and knowledge.
Is that idea based on the fact that vast majority of the Republican party has embraced his ideas and his governance?

As for Hitler's alleged hostility to the church and acceptance of it "out of necessity," do you know what happened to institutions and organizations in Nazi Germany that he was actually hostile to?

Your post reminds me of this quotation from post 920:
How is this so hard, Trump is a narcissist not a fascist, he couldn't spell fascist let alone tell you what it is. Turns out an authoritarian narcissist man child governs like a fascist.

I am still befuddled as to why the folks who have been calling him a fascist to zero impact for 10 years keep doing it.

ETA, as I've mentioned the real problem with fascism is as Orwell said, it hasn't meant anything other than bad people I don't like since 1944.
 
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"the real problem with fascism is as Orwell said, it hasn't meant anything other than bad people I don't like since 1944."

You've defeated your own argument here, without realizing it. Language changes over time, yet you want to stick to a static definition that is outdated since 1944.
 
"the real problem with fascism is as Orwell said, it hasn't meant anything other than bad people I don't like since 1944."

You've defeated your own argument here, without realizing it. Language changes over time, yet you want to stick to a static definition that is outdated since 1944.
Exactly. Now "fascist" means people I don't like.
 
How is this so hard, Trump is a narcissist not a fascist, he couldn't spell fascist let alone tell you what it is. Turns out an authoritarian narcissist man child governs like a fascist.
Your defense of fascism is getting more and more absurd.
In your previous post, you claimed that Trump couldn't be a fascist because he wasn't intelligent enough. Now, you're claiming that narcissism and fascism are mutually exclusive, i.e. that Trump is not empathic enough to be a fascist. You're really doing your utmost to make Nazis look good, aren't you?
I am still befuddled as to why the folks who have been calling him a fascist to zero impact for 10 years keep doing it.
Why be befuddled? Trump was a fascist ten years ago, and he hasn't changed much in this respect. It has only become more obvious. In fact, it has become so obvious that you yourself say that "his governance has been functionally indistinguishable from fascism," and yet you refuse to acknowledge that it's because it is fascism.
You should be befuddled as to why you still refuse to call the beast a duck. We called it a duck ten years ago, and we still call it a duck today. You won't call it a duck even after you've seen it walk like a duck and quack like a duck.
The cognitive dissonance is conspicuous!
ETA, as I've mentioned the real problem with fascism is as Orwell said, it hasn't meant anything other than bad people I don't like since 1944.
One of the many real problems with fascism is that people who ought to know better don't recognize it even when what they see is "functionally indistinguishable from fascism."
When Hitler seized power in 1933, the so-called national conservatives helped him:
Machtergreifung (Wikipedia)
Als Machtergreifung (auch Machtübernahme oder Machtübergabe) wird die Ernennung des Nationalsozialisten Adolf Hitler zum Reichskanzler durch den Reichspräsidenten Paul von Hindenburg am 30. Januar 1933 bezeichnet. Hitler übernahm an diesem Tag die Führung einer Koalitionsregierung von NSDAP und nationalkonservativen Verbündeten (DNVP, Stahlhelm).
You know, much like the way old-style Republicans, MAGA and a couple of corporate Democrats united to empower Trump!
You must be so proud of the role you're playing.
 
Exactly. Now "fascist" means people I don't like.
No, Trump has confused you and other MAGAlytes.
Trump is the one who calls people he doesn't like fascists (or communists, socialists, the radical left, etc.).
Why Trump and His Supporters Keep Calling Democrats 'Fascists' (Time Magazine, Aug 22, 2023)
So you're wrong. Fascists aren't the people you don't like. The actual fascists are people you do like, people like Trump.

When I ask Google, Who does Trump call fascists?, I get this answer:
Donald Trump frequently calls Democratic opponents, "radical left" politicians, and his political critics "fascists," "Marxists," and "communists"
* Political Targets: He has used these labels at campaign rallies and town halls against the Democratic Party and figures like Kamala Harris, describing them as the "enemy from within"
* Context: Trump often deploys these terms as counter-attacks when political opponents or former members of his own administration (such as former Chief of Staff John Kelly and former Joint Chiefs Chairman Mark Milley) accuse him of exhibiting authoritarian or fascist tendencies.

Unlike Trump and MAGA, most other politicians tend to be more discerning in their choice of adjectives. They rarely resort to Trump's childish habit of simply picking any negative-sounding word to describe his opponents without considering what it actually means.
Trump is "fascist to the core," Milley says in Woodward book (WaPo, Oct 12, 2024)
Unlike Trump, Mark Milley has actually studied fascism and analyzed Trump's behaviour before using the word.
He knows what he's talking about.
 
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So, apparently, J.K. Rowling is a fascist. That's how meaningless the word is.
So, apparently ...???
If some random dude on Twitter doesn't use the word fascist right, that doesn't make the word anymore meaningless than when Trump and MAGA don't use the word right.
As for Rowling, she appears to be all over the place. At least on some topics, her views are anti-fascist, e.g.:
Political views of J.K. Rowling (Wikipedia)
She has also opposed the American Republican Party under Donald Trump. (...)
Rowling spoke out during the European migrant crisis of 2015, expressing her support for refugees. (...)
In 2018 Rowling wrote on Twitter that she was tired of "blood and soil ethno-nationalists marching with" civic campaigners (...)
[In an open letter she] denounces US President Donald Trump as "a real threat to democracy" (...)
In 2022 she said she thinks all women should have the right to "safe, legal abortion should they wish to terminate a pregnancy."
 
Fascist regimes had all or most of the following factors in common to greater or lesser degrees. A regime that maximizes all these factors would be completely Fascist. Other regimes can be partially Fascist.
Having things in common is hardly a criterion, or Diogenes would have been right that a plucked chicken is a human. Especially if it's feeding circularly on previous wrong usage. So it's more like starting calling a plucked chicken a human, and then deciding that therefore so is a shaved chimp. And then going from there to decide that so was the T Rex, etc.

Actually, the meaning is made very clear in Mussolini's Fascist Manifesto, and further clarified in his autobiography. It just means the nation above everything, united under one will and vision, without any divisions. It was in opposition to both the old conservative vs liberals division, and especially to Marxism, which divided things by class and postulated them to only exist in conflict.

As I keep saying, if I had to sum up fascism in one sentence, I haven't found a better one than Kennedy's, "Ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country." That's it. Mussolini himself couldn't have put it better.

Germany changed that to mean "ethnic state", as in only encompassing the "Aryan Germans", if you want to classify the NSDAP as fascist, but Italian fascism was really just about Italy.

One corollary that is actually spelled out right in the manifesto is control of the industry. The industry must exist to serve the state.

Germany exemplified this in the Stakeholder Act of '37. The state was the most important stakeholder in any corporation, and had a board member with veto power on every board of directors. (That's how Messerschmidt could be forced to bear the cost and provide factory space for the Me-163 Kermit... err... Komet disaster. And that mostly happened because Milch hated Willy Messerschmidt. But Willy couldn't refuse a direct order from the state.)

Others, like authoritarianism and control of the press, are quite trivial corollaries, so I'll let them slide. You know, since otherwise you can't enforce a single undivided vision.

Everything else is extra fluff.


As an example, if you want THE prime example of a modern country that fits fascism to a T, look no further than China.
 
Unlike Trump, Mark Milley has actually studied fascism and analyzed Trump's behaviour before using the word.
He knows what he's talking about.
No he doesn't. He doesn't have any degree in history or even any history of on the job experience in it. "He studied it" without any relevant qualification makes him about as qualified as Jenny McCarthy is to talk about vaccines causing autism. Yeah, she "studied it" quite extensively too. Didn't understand jack squat, but she "studied it."
 
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