Will Democrats ever concede on immigration?

[Emily's Cat]

One, just call them "concentration camps". You know the other side is just going to go right there with the conversation anyway.

I know they will. But they're not concentration camps, they're not punitive. I think it's reasonable to provide an in-between solution for those claiming asylum, but whose cases haven't been determined. Just opening the door and letting people roam at will on pure trust seems ill advised and poorly thought out. It can be a very nice area - decent housing, cafeteria, grocery stores, some basic shops, etc. Just a reasonable acknowledgement that they're not actually citizens yet, they don't have a visa, and their cases haven't yet been seen... so they get limited ability to roam free.

Two, I think prohibiting asylum seekers from self-ghettoizing would go against our principles of freedom of association and freedom of travel.

Refugees weren't given that freedom in the first place - they were placed in locations in large groups. Do you think that a 100,000 people from an arid semi-desert climate all spontaneously chose to live in a state with very cold winters with heavy snows, and very humid summers? No, they were placed in Minnesota as a group. Spreading them around would make more sense to me, and would lead to a higher likelihood of assimilation.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Your link explicitly states they are not advocating for open borders. Did you read it?

Did you read this:

Ten Arguments for Open Borders, the Abolition of ICE, and an Internationalist Labor Movement​

https://sfarchive.dsausa.org/issues/fall-2019/ten-arguments-for-open-borders-the-abolition-of-ice-and-an-internationalist-labor-movement/

Or this?

Open Borders: The Once and Future Immigration Policy​

https://sfarchive.dsausa.org/issues/fall-2019/open-borders-the-once-and-future-immigration-policy/

 

[Norman Alexander]

Did you read this:

Ten Arguments for Open Borders, the Abolition of ICE, and an Internationalist Labor Movement​

https://sfarchive.dsausa.org/issues/fall-2019/ten-arguments-for-open-borders-the-abolition-of-ice-and-an-internationalist-labor-movement/

Or this?

Open Borders: The Once and Future Immigration Policy​

https://sfarchive.dsausa.org/issues/fall-2019/open-borders-the-once-and-future-immigration-policy/

You had to go back to 2019 to find that? And they are essays, not policy.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

open borders are just the logical consequence of Free Global Trade and Flow of Money.
Either you have all three or none - everything less is going to cause problems requiring a lot of border control to manage.
That's just simple economics.

 

[Norman Alexander]

I know they will. But they're not concentration camps, they're not punitive. I think it's reasonable to provide an in-between solution for those claiming asylum, but whose cases haven't been determined. Just opening the door and letting people roam at will on pure trust seems ill advised and poorly thought out. It can be a very nice area - decent housing, cafeteria, grocery stores, some basic shops, etc. Just a reasonable acknowledgement that they're not actually citizens yet, they don't have a visa, and their cases haven't yet been seen... so they get limited ability to roam free.

The USA used to do exactly that until recently -letting new i migrants roam free. Of course, if they broke the law then they would suffer the consequences. Just like everyone else.

Refugees weren't given that freedom in the first place - they were placed in locations in large groups. Do you think that a 100,000 people from an arid semi-desert climate all spontaneously chose to live in a state with very cold winters with heavy snows, and very humid summers? No, they were placed in Minnesota as a group. Spreading them around would make more sense to me, and would lead to a higher likelihood of assimilation.

Errr... You just argued FOR keeping refugees in one place, NOT assimilating them.

 

[plague311]

Pretty much every country in the world polices it border and expels illegals. What about the US doing exactly the same thing is fascist? Does "fascist" just mean anything you don't like?

How many ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ times do you have to be told? No one has an issue with immigration enforcement. Nobody. We have a problem with the way it's being done. The damage it's doing to communities and families. The aggressive policy of pulling people out of literal immigration hearings where they're working on a path to citizenship. We have a problem with US citizens being rounded up and deported while ICE, and other government entities, lie about it to the public.

Seriously, how in the ◊◊◊◊ are you not getting this? Policing borders is fine. Terrorizing the populace is where it becomes fascist. I genuinely am trying to figure out why you're incapable of understanding this because it's documented ad nauseum. I know you righties LOVE watching immigrants get terrorized though, so you probably understand why but, to you (and your ilk) it's a feature not a bug. After all, judging by how many quotes don't show up for me I can tell it's the same group making the same nonsense arguments.

Discouraging foreigners from entering your country and committing crimes makes quite a lot of sense, actually.

This is what I mean by "cut off your nose to spite your face." The only reason foreigners don't want to come here now is because it sucks. Tourism is way down, and that used to bring in money. The lack of tourism is actually having a massive impact on my city because Canadians would rather eat a big of moldy dicks than come to the US to do their shopping, but that makes quite a lot of sense to you, doesn't it? Why have foreign people spend their money here and help our economy, right? Top notch critical thinking from you as always Trausti.

And if you really thought the US was some terrible fascist country, wouldn't you want to warn these foreigners from coming here?

We don't need to, you made the point that they're not coming already. Apparently even people who come from other countries and don't speak our language are smarter than the average Trump supporter, since they don't even want to come here anymore.

Congratulations. The party of used rectal thermometers that we refer to as the GOP has made America so ◊◊◊◊◊◊ that people don't want to travel or even sneak in here anymore. Good for you I guess?

 

[Emily's Cat]

You had to go back to 2019 to find that? And they are essays, not policy.

Here you go then.

2024

https://www.dsausa.org/statements/statement-on-migration-and-international-solidarity-between-working-people/

DSA’s goal is to build a political movement that ends the squandering of public resources on jailing, harassing, and impoverishing the working-class migrants who bear the brunt of the United States’ anti-worker domestic policy and anti-democratic foreign policy. This goal cannot be achieved without ending the US foreign interference that compels migration and instead advancing policies which respect working-class migrants’ ability to travel, work freely and participate fully in US society alongside their US-born working-class neighbors.

https://dsa-la.org/democratic-socialist-program-for-los-angeles/#immigration

As socialists, we stand in solidarity with immigrant workers, students, families, and believe that everyone is deserving of dignity and compassion. Arbitrary lines written on a map do not take away from our collective, shared struggle from liberation. Further, we recognize that immigration intersects with all of our issues, and true justice requires that we pursue multiple campaigns in unison.

Our Demands​

• Completely disentangle local government agencies from any immigration enforcement
  • Ensure robust implementation of existing Sanctuary City ordinances in Los Angeles County and City
  • Expand sanctuary ordinances to other municipalities in Los Angeles County
• Guarantee the human, civic, and democratic rights of immigrant Angelenos
  • Allocate funding for Rapid Response to recruit and train volunteers and develop raid response protocols to combat ICE raids
  • Commit ongoing funding to immigrant defense legal funds
  • Expand noncitizen voting in all local elections
• Defend immigrant communities from immigration enforcement agencies
  • Expand the use of diversion programs and enhance their effectiveness at limiting immigration consequences
  • Require businesses to report any immigration enforcement activity to the City
  • Limit the use of “I-9 recertification” to check and report employee immigration status.
  • Oppose any proposals to establish immigrant detention facilities in Los Angeles

DSA Program

Workers Deserve More!

program.dsausa.org

End ICE detention and deportations and punish federal agents' brutality. Legalize migration, grant amnesty for all immigrants regardless of status, provide a path to citizenship for all permanent residents, and end visa caps and quotas.

Just because they don't literally use the exact phrase "open borders" doesn't stop them from advocating for exactly that - no border enforcement, free movement between countries with no barriers or vetting, give citizenship to anyone who asks for it, etc.

And of course, this is all magically free - everything's free. Free housing, free education, free health care, free free free free! And no prisons, by the way.

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Emily's Cat]

The USA used to do exactly that until recently -letting new i migrants roam free. Of course, if they broke the law then they would suffer the consequences. Just like everyone else.

Errr... You just argued FOR keeping refugees in one place, NOT assimilating them.

Actually, I argued for two things. Keep then in one place without free movement in the US while awaiting their asylum claim decision. Once they've been granted asylum, spread them out to facilitate efficient assimilation.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Here you go then.

2024

https://www.dsausa.org/statements/statement-on-migration-and-international-solidarity-between-working-people/

https://dsa-la.org/democratic-socialist-program-for-los-angeles/#immigration

DSA Program

Workers Deserve More!

program.dsausa.org

Just because they don't literally use the exact phrase "open borders" doesn't stop them from advocating for exactly that - no border enforcement, free movement between countries with no barriers or vetting, give citizenship to anyone who asks for it, etc.

No, that's you saying that. Strawman fallacy.

And of course, this is all magically free - everything's free. Free housing, free education, free health care, free free free free! And no prisons, by the way.

What could possibly go wrong?

And that's a classic Slippery Slope fallacy.

 

[Emily's Cat]

How many ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ times do you have to be told? No one has an issue with immigration enforcement. Nobody.

Other than the DSA, you mean? They have a problem with immigration enforcement.

Democratic Socialists of America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Immigration​

DSA supports open borders and freedom of movement for all people.[74] Its platform calls for allowing workers to freely migrate, demilitarizing the US border, ending all immigrant detention and deportations, and providing immediate amnesty and access to social services for all immigrants.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, that's you saying that. Strawman fallacy.

They're literally advocating for completely free migration between countries, granting voting rights in all elections to anyone present in the US regardless of whether they're citizens or not, and also giving citizenship to anyone who enters the US and wants it.

What exactly is a strawman in that? That's their position, it's what they're actively advocating for. It's literally what they want.

Legalize migration, grant amnesty for all immigrants regardless of status, provide a path to citizenship for all permanent residents, and end visa caps and quotas.

And that's a classic Slippery Slope fallacy.

THEY SAY IT WILL ALL BE FREE

DSA Program

Workers Deserve More!

program.dsausa.org

I'm not slippery sloping anything. Their actual position is free healthcare, free housing, free utilities, free pension, free education, free transportation.

You have no debt. You don’t need health insurance. You don’t pay a mortgage or have a landlord, because comfortable housing is a human right. Your retirement is publicly funded. Food, education, energy, medicine, and transportation aren’t for-profit businesses; they are common goods and utilities.

There program involves the destruction of a significant portion of the US constitution. I'm not making that up, that's what it would take to accomplish their goals.

Abolish the Electoral College. Replace the President and Supreme Court with an executive and judiciary chosen by and subordinate to Congress.

Expand the House of Representatives, implement proportional representation and ranked choice voting in all elections, and abolish the Senate.

This includes abolishing property rights and prisons:

Establish public ownership of the largest corporations and essential industries to ensure democratic control and accountability to the people.

Demilitarize police departments, disempower police unions, and redirect funding to public services as steps towards fully abolishing the police and prison system

The DSA program is a recipe for destroying a country and leaving it completely vulnerable to a totalitarian take-over.

 

[Norman Alexander]

They're literally advocating for completely free migration between countries, granting voting rights in all elections to anyone present in the US regardless of whether they're citizens or not, and also giving citizenship to anyone who enters the US and wants it.

One comes before the other. And the USA did indeed offer citizenship to all and sundry until not so long ago.

What exactly is a strawman in that? That's their position, it's what they're actively advocating for. It's literally what they want.

Nope. It's your spin, not their words.

THEY SAY IT WILL ALL BE FREE

DSA Program

Workers Deserve More!

program.dsausa.org

I'm not slippery sloping anything. Their actual position is free healthcare, free housing, free utilities, free pension, free education, free transportation.

Oh for goodness sake. Do you think nobody pays anything? We have "free" public health care in Australia as the DSA proposes. How do you think we afford it, if it is "free"?

There program involves the destruction of a significant portion of the US constitution. I'm not making that up, that's what it would take to accomplish their goals.

LOL

This includes abolishing property rights and prisons:

LOL again

The DSA program is a recipe for destroying a country and leaving it completely vulnerable to a totalitarian take-over.

Then you best get to panicking, I suppose.

 

[Trausti]

How many ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ times do you have to be told? No one has an issue with immigration enforcement. Nobody. We have a problem with the way it's being done.

Ya know, if the illegals would just comply with the law none of this would be necessary. But the illegals know there will be endless apologists who pretend that enforcement of the law is the problem, not the people openly breaking it.

 

[Trausti]

This is what I mean by "cut off your nose to spite your face." The only reason foreigners don't want to come here now is because it sucks. Tourism is way down, and that used to bring in money. The lack of tourism is actually having a massive impact on my city because Canadians would rather eat a big of moldy dicks than come to the US to do their shopping, but that makes quite a lot of sense to you, doesn't it? Why have foreign people spend their money here and help our economy, right? Top notch critical thinking from you as always Trausti.

This doesn't make any sense. Why would the US enforcing its border have any impact on tourists? Whenever I travel abroad I always make sure that may documents are in order. That's just common sense. And for years and years many foreigner tourists to the US have been able to do the same. Oh, wait, I get it. Those foreign tourists were not intending to violate US law. That's probably the difference.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

In camps. With barbed wire fences. And searchlight towers. With armed guards.

It'll be fun!

And dogs. Everybody likes dogs.

ETA: Ninja'd by stacyhs. I guess everybody really does like dogs.

 

[Manopolus]

Pretty much every country in the world polices it border and expels illegals. What about the US doing exactly the same thing is fascist? Does "fascist" just mean anything you don't like? Discouraging foreigners from entering your country and committing crimes makes quite a lot of sense, actually. And if you really thought the US was some terrible fascist country, wouldn't you want to warn these foreigners from coming here?

How about murder? Yes, murder by government officials, followed by coverups and excuses, does prevent people wanting to come here, but it's not exactly exemplary behavior, now is it? What part of that reads as "normal government doing its thing" to you?

We could talk about the two incidents in Minneapolis, or we could talk about certain military actions at sea. Your choice. All were literally instances of murder by the usual definitions.

 

[EHocking]

And dogs. Everybody likes dogs.

ETA: Ninja'd by stacyhs. I guess everybody really does like dogs.

… and cats.

Especially immigrants, apparently,

 

[mumblethrax]

But they're not concentration camps, they're not punitive.

Concentration camps aren't necessarily penal. The Japanese internment camps were concentration camps, and they weren't penal either.

And of course, this is all magically free - everything's free. Free housing, free education, free health care, free free free free! And no prisons, by the way.

You're advocating building "Asylum Cities". Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

The example of Alligator Alcatraz might be instructive here. We spent $1.2 billion on that particular episode of performative cruelty. $3,571 per prisoner per day. And that's the cost for housing people in cages. If you want them to have a decent standard of living, it will be more.

Housing people within the community is the cheap option.

 

[Donal]

Pretty much every country in the world polices it border and expels illegals.

Pretty much every country in the world provides paid maternity leave too. Are we going to stay with that standard?

What about the US doing exactly the same thing is fascist?

Targeting people based on their perceived ethnicity. Murdering people in the streets for disrespecting pigs.

Does "fascist" just mean anything you don't like?

No it has a definition

Discouraging foreigners from entering your country and committing crimes makes quite a lot of sense, actually.

Discouraging foreign investment, workers, and tourists does not.

And if you really thought the US was some terrible fascist country, wouldn't you want to warn these foreigners from coming here?

I thought it was a commie hell hole?

 

[Donal]

I know they will.

Because it is true

But they're not concentration camps,

except they are

they're not punitive.

Except they are and that isn't even part of the requirement for being a concentration camp.

I think it's reasonable to provide an in-between solution for those claiming asylum,

what is a concentration camp between?

but whose cases haven't been determined. Just opening the door and letting people roam at will on pure trust seems ill advised and poorly thought out.

Really? Because it works pretty well

It can be a very nice area - decent housing, cafeteria, grocery stores, some basic shops, etc.

Like housing projects?

Just a reasonable acknowledgement that they're not actually citizens yet, they don't have a visa, and their cases haven't yet been seen... so they get limited ability to roam free.

So you are restricting their right of movement without due process.

Refugees weren't given that freedom in the first place - they were placed in locations in large groups. Do you think that a 100,000 people from an arid semi-desert climate all spontaneously chose to live in a state with very cold winters with heavy snows, and very humid summers? No, they were placed in Minnesota as a group. Spreading them around would make more sense to me, and would lead to a higher likelihood of assimilation.

Or disappearing into the system, like over 1,000 children have done since the orange pedo's family seperation policy was first implmented.