Split Thread DEI in the US

[arthwollipot]

So pathetic.

 

[Trausti]

One example. Just one.

 

[arthwollipot]

Broken record.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Equity vs Equality: What’s the Difference? - United Way NCA

Equity and equality aren’t the same. Learn the differences and how United Way NCA promotes equity across education, health, and economic opportunity.

unitedwaynca.org

They tell you flat out that equity is not equality.

Equity vs Equality in Education and Employment

The difference between equity and equality is especially visible in education and employment. Equality might mean giving everyone the same tools, but equity involves recognizing individual needs and addressing them accordingly. In the workplace, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives often focus on equity by ensuring that underrepresented groups receive the mentorship, resources, and opportunities they need to succeed.

How much clearer does it have to be to finally get through to you that yes, it does mean giving one group more opportunities than another group gets.

 

[arthwollipot]

How much clearer does it have to be to finally get through to you that yes, it does mean giving one group more opportunities than another group gets.

When the one group has been denied as many opportunities as the other group (for whatever reason), this is a Good Thing.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

When the one group has been denied as many opportunities as the other group (for whatever reason), this is a Good Thing.

Is it? Why is it better than just stopping discriminating?

Plus, again, it's the exact same logic the nazis used. The whole propaganda was that one group (the Jews) has had way more and better opportunities, and the other group (the Germans) has had too few, and was historically discriminated against by the former group.

 

[arthwollipot]

Is it? Why is it better than just stopping discriminating?

It's the same thing.

Plus, again, it's the exact same logic the nazis used. The whole propaganda was that one group (the Jews) has had too way more and better opportunities, and the other group (the Germans) has had too few.

Yeah, but they were wrong, as is everyone who believes that DEI is equivalent to discrimination.

Discrimination isn't always bad. Yes, when you deny opportunities to people for arbitrary reasons it's bad, but sometimes you want to discriminate between different groups. If you're studying sickle cell disease, you absolutely want to discriminate between people of African descent and people of European descent, because the disease itself affects different groups differently.

Those who equate DEI with discrimination only ever equate it with the bad side of discrimination, and therefore the whole thing is bad. Yes - some discrimination is good, when you're dealing with different groups where things affect them differently. African and Latin Americans trend on the poor side, with fewer opportunities and a history of the bad kind of discrimination. To treat these diverse groups equitably, you have to discriminate and give them opportunities that they have historically been denied. That's not a Bad Thing - that's a Good Thing. It includes them in social and employment situations that they were historically less able to access, and makes those situations more diverse.

I've said it before. If you don't support diversity, equity, and inclusion, then you are accepting monoculture, discrimination for arbitrary reasons, and exclusivity. Those groups who are against DEI and those groups who apply the theories and ideas of DEI poorly, resulting in worse outcomes, are equally as bad.

Again, as an example of DEI done right is the Australian Public Service. It has resulted in a diverse workforce where nobody is barred for arbitrary reasons, which results in high productivity and high morale. I have posted this repeatedly in this thread, but some here have just ignored it and keep asking for "just one example". Here is my "just one example". Read it this time and learn.

https://www.apsc.gov.au/working-aps/diversity-and-inclusion

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Yeah, but they were wrong, as is everyone who believes that DEI is equivalent to discrimination.

Discrimination isn't always bad.

I think you have to make up your mind. You start by saying it's not discrimination, but then proceed to defend discrimination, if it's for the reasons you like.

Yes, when you deny opportunities to people for arbitrary reasons it's bad, but sometimes you want to discriminate between different groups. If you're studying sickle cell disease, you absolutely want to discriminate between people of African descent and people of European descent, because the disease itself affects different groups differently.

Those who equate DEI with discrimination only ever equate it with the bad side of discrimination, and therefore the whole thing is bad. Yes - some discrimination is good, when you're dealing with different groups where things affect them differently. African and Latin Americans trend on the poor side, with fewer opportunities and a history of the bad kind of discrimination. To treat these diverse groups equitably, you have to discriminate and give them opportunities that they have historically been denied. That's not a Bad Thing - that's a Good Thing. It includes them in social and employment situations that they were historically less able to access, and makes those situations more diverse.

I've said it before. If you don't support diversity, equity, and inclusion, then you are accepting monoculture, discrimination for arbitrary reasons, and exclusivity. Those groups who are against DEI and those groups who apply the theories and ideas of DEI poorly, resulting in worse outcomes, are equally as bad.

You've described the nazi propaganda rationale to a T. They didn't say they discriminate based on some random thing like religion. They too thought that ethnic Germans had been historically discriminated against by the Jews, been denied lucrative jobs (e.g., in banking), got less resources per capita, bla, bla, bla, and now they were fixing it by discriminating the other way around.

Again, as an example of DEI done right is the Australian Public Service. It has resulted in a diverse workforce where nobody is barred for arbitrary reasons, which results in high productivity and high morale. I have posted this repeatedly in this thread, but some here have just ignored it and keep asking for "just one example". Here is my "just one example". Read it this time and learn.

https://www.apsc.gov.au/working-aps/diversity-and-inclusion

Well, here's the problem with your example: it misses the E. It's just diversity and inclusion. Which I never objected to.

 

[arthwollipot]

Which I never objected to.

You weren't the one demanding "just one example".

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Merit in this context just means qualified to do the job.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

You've described the nazi propaganda rationale to a T.

And now the thread is officially Godwinned.

They didn't say they discriminate based on some random thing like religion. They too thought that ethnic Germans had been historically discriminated against by the Jews, been denied lucrative jobs (e.g., in banking), got less resources per capita, bla, bla, bla, and now they were fixing it by discriminating the other way around.

In one case they 'thought' it, while in the other case it actually happened. Equating 400 Years of Slavery to the delusions of antisemitic Germans may not be the most intellectually dishonest argument I've seen, but it's certainly up there.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

You weren't the one demanding "just one example".

You gave the example to me, though, so I think I can be excused for answering to that part too.

 

[arthwollipot]

You gave the example to me, though, so I think I can be excused for answering to that part too.

I gave the example to the thread*. You just happened to be in the way.

*several times

 

[theprestige]

Are you sure about that?

Yes. The merit argument is my argument. I know what my argument is, and what I mean by it.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I gave the example to the thread*. You just happened to be in the way.

*several times

Fair enough. Just it was in the same message I was answering to, so...

 

[theprestige]

Equality is ensuring everyone recieves size 10 shoes. Equity is ensuring everyone receives shoes that fit their feet.

US attempts at equitable education have simply resulted in all students getting shoes that don't fit.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Merit is the whole reason for DEI existing. Historically, positions of power, prestige, and high pay have been reserved for white men. They hire other white men, network with other white men, and white men recommend each others for prestigious positions. Recently, white women have managed to claw their way into these positions, too, only to 'pull the ladder up after them' and exclude non-white women from those same positions. Given time, various minorities too, like brown men and women, will be a natural part of these environments and recruitment will be gender- and colour-blind, but right now, as we all know, networks play a huge part in who get hired. Rules that ensure diversity in workplaces just accelerates the process, with all the benefits that come with that diversity.

The analogy with the crates and the fence is actually really fitting here --the smaller kids will eventually grow tall enough to look over the fence, but giving them crates to stand on means they'll get to watch baseball games right now.

 

[theprestige]

The analogy with the crates and the fence is actually really fitting here --the smaller kids will eventually grow tall enough to look over the fence, but giving them crates to stand on means they'll get to watch baseball games right now.

Idlers peering over a fence to watch qualified professionals doing their jobs isn't really the analogy you're looking for.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Idlers peering over a fence to watch qualified professionals doing their jobs isn't really the analogy you're looking for.

To a game they didn't even buy a ticket for, if we're going to take the piss.

But yes, if some guy needs extra opportunities and resources, or even worse, as that PRO-equity quote went, extra mentoring, to succeed at their job, that just tells me they hired someone too incompetent for that job. I didn't need any extra mentoring either in the army, nor at my programming job, to succeed at it.

And I've had several coworkers from India, some as black as coal, China, again, including a dark skinned one, several Arabs, a Japanese, at least two Romanians, both of which ended up my boss at different times, at least two Russians, an Ukrainian, a Pole, a Brazilian, etc. Some of them women too. In fact, one of those female Indians was an extremely competent programmer, and one was probably the best tester we ever had. And at least one trans-woman. But that's it: they were competent. They didn't need anyone to hold their hand and give them extra mentoring to succeed at their job.

The only one who needed extra mentoring was a (white) guy who was, honestly, too incompetent to even figure out how to piss holes in snow on his own. He needed mentoring with stuff like why does he get an end-of-file exception when he's read the whole file and wants to keep reading from it. Thank F he didn't last that long there, regarding of any racial or ethnic considerations.

 

[arthwollipot]

And I've had several coworkers from India, some as black as coal, China, again, including a dark skinned one, several Arabs, a Japanese, at least two Romanians, both of which ended up my boss at different times, at least two Russians, an Ukrainian, a Pole, a Brazilian, etc. Some of them women too. In fact, one of those female Indians was an extremely competent programmer, and one was probably the best tester we ever had. And at least one trans-woman. But that's it: they were competent. They didn't need anyone to hold their hand and give them extra mentoring to succeed at their job.

The only one who needed extra mentoring was a (white) guy who was, honestly, too incompetent to even figure out how to piss holes in snow on his own. He needed mentoring with stuff like why does he get an end-of-file exception when he's read the whole file and wants to keep reading from it. Thank F he didn't last that long there, regarding of any racial or ethnic considerations.

DEI in action.